From something at amias.org.uk  Mon Dec  1 11:50:18 2008
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 11:50:18 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <49322587.5030904@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com> <49322587.5030904@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <1228132218.7613.1.camel@localhost>

On Sun, 2008-11-30 at 05:32 +0000, Lyle wrote:
> I leant a lot more from LPW than I expected

well someone has to keep the bar propped up ;-)

Toodle-pip
Amias


From something at amias.org.uk  Mon Dec  1 11:58:32 2008
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 11:58:32 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Next meeting
In-Reply-To: <A797F2D4-3ED3-4C0E-8089-887DFC9E2AB9@gmail.com>
References: <PGM.20081117111619.21146.9440@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<PGM.20081124121251.21939.9459@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<16afc9550811240428u50452871r379e20d7436eb8d6@mail.gmail.com>
	<492C9D04.5070800@cosmicperl.com>
	<d2cea6400811260332l6976b551qae3673b584d44131@mail.gmail.com>
	<50fec4060811260528v17d58a7fh44d8f4b674b1fede@mail.gmail.com>
	<49321279.3040505@cosmicperl.com>
	<A797F2D4-3ED3-4C0E-8089-887DFC9E2AB9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1228132712.7613.8.camel@localhost>

On Sun, 2008-11-30 at 18:10 +0000, Max wrote:
> I like the idea of having a meal at the next perl meeting, and maybe  
> drinking a little less ;)

heresy ! $commandments[0] == 'thou must be drunk when talking about Perl
whenest thou is not at thine work'

the food option might be a little complex for me being a vegan
but curry is usually a safe bet .

>  I don't have a partner at the moment so I can't comment on that.

me either , can i bring an instance of Chatbot::Eliza ?

Toodle-pip
Amias


From alex at alexfrancis.org.uk  Mon Dec  1 12:04:29 2008
From: alex at alexfrancis.org.uk (Alex Francis)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:04:29 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Next meeting
In-Reply-To: <1228132712.7613.8.camel@localhost>
References: <PGM.20081117111619.21146.9440@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<PGM.20081124121251.21939.9459@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<16afc9550811240428u50452871r379e20d7436eb8d6@mail.gmail.com>
	<492C9D04.5070800@cosmicperl.com>
	<d2cea6400811260332l6976b551qae3673b584d44131@mail.gmail.com>
	<50fec4060811260528v17d58a7fh44d8f4b674b1fede@mail.gmail.com>
	<49321279.3040505@cosmicperl.com>
	<A797F2D4-3ED3-4C0E-8089-887DFC9E2AB9@gmail.com>
	<1228132712.7613.8.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <16afc9550812010404v1d7c31b2md3d25bb2f5528a21@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Amias Channer <something at amias.org.uk> wrote:
> me either , can i bring an instance of Chatbot::Eliza ?
>

I see. How does it make you feel that you have to bring an instance of
Chatbot::Eliza?

From something at amias.org.uk  Mon Dec  1 13:12:36 2008
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 13:12:36 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Next meeting
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550812010404v1d7c31b2md3d25bb2f5528a21@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PGM.20081117111619.21146.9440@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<PGM.20081124121251.21939.9459@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<16afc9550811240428u50452871r379e20d7436eb8d6@mail.gmail.com>
	<492C9D04.5070800@cosmicperl.com>
	<d2cea6400811260332l6976b551qae3673b584d44131@mail.gmail.com>
	<50fec4060811260528v17d58a7fh44d8f4b674b1fede@mail.gmail.com>
	<49321279.3040505@cosmicperl.com>
	<A797F2D4-3ED3-4C0E-8089-887DFC9E2AB9@gmail.com>
	<1228132712.7613.8.camel@localhost>
	<16afc9550812010404v1d7c31b2md3d25bb2f5528a21@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1228137156.7613.20.camel@localhost>

On Mon, 2008-12-01 at 12:04 +0000, Alex Francis wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Amias Channer <something at amias.org.uk> wrote:
> > me either , can i bring an instance of Chatbot::Eliza ?
> >
> 
> I see. How does it make you feel that you have to bring an instance of
> Chatbot::Eliza?

sad but not as sad as Bone::Easy....

perl -MChatbot::Eliza -MBone::Easy -e "$a=Chatbot::Eliza->new();
 for(0..$ARGV[0]){$b=pickup(); $c=$a->transform($b);
 print \"Bone: $b\nLiz: $c\n\"}print 'Liz: '.$a->final()->[0].\"\n\"" 10


Toodle-pip
Amias


From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Wed Dec  3 11:26:01 2008
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Wed,  3 Dec 2008 11:26:01 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Next meeting
References: <PGM.20081117111619.21146.9440@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<PGM.20081124121251.21939.9459@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<16afc9550811240428u50452871r379e20d7436eb8d6@mail.gmail.com>
	<492C9D04.5070800@cosmicperl.com>
	<d2cea6400811260332l6976b551qae3673b584d44131@mail.gmail.com>
	<50fec4060811260528v17d58a7fh44d8f4b674b1fede@mail.gmail.com>
	<49321279.3040505@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20081203112601.14088.9478@edison.ioppublishing.com>

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From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Wed Dec  3 12:05:46 2008
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Wed,  3 Dec 2008 12:05:46 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com> <49322587.5030904@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20081203120546.14088.9480@edison.ioppublishing.com>

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From alex at alexfrancis.org.uk  Wed Dec  3 12:28:51 2008
From: alex at alexfrancis.org.uk (Alex Francis)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:28:51 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20081203120546.14088.9480@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com> <49322587.5030904@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081203120546.14088.9480@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550812030428j5ba4684ds71a592f657d30c49@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Peter Haworth
<pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 05:32:55 +0000, Lyle wrote:
>> > A lightening talk
>
> Should be "lightning"
>

I'm thinking you're a wizard. http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/intp.htm

"...they tend to see distinctions and inconsistencies in thought and
language instantaneously..."

:-)
Alex

From nigel at turbo10.com  Wed Dec  3 14:01:14 2008
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 14:01:14 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Next meeting
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20081203112601.14088.9478@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <PGM.20081117111619.21146.9440@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<PGM.20081124121251.21939.9459@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<16afc9550811240428u50452871r379e20d7436eb8d6@mail.gmail.com>
	<492C9D04.5070800@cosmicperl.com>
	<d2cea6400811260332l6976b551qae3673b584d44131@mail.gmail.com>
	<50fec4060811260528v17d58a7fh44d8f4b674b1fede@mail.gmail.com>
	<49321279.3040505@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081203112601.14088.9478@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <50fec4060812030601m4710170fg81c89e76c6e6d311@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
>
>
> > As it's Christmas maybe we could make it a meal at somewhere (we
> > could all bring our partners... after all it's Christmas :)
>
> A meal sounds like a great idea, though I'd prefer a slightly earlier
> start in that case, say 6:30. I don't think I'll be able to persuade
> Stevy to join us, though.
>

How about having a pie at The Raven for dinner?
http://www.theravenofbath.co.uk/food.html - they do vegetarian pies too
[1].

My partner can't make it but people should feel free to bring along anyone
or anything they like.

Nige

[1] All this talk of pies will make the London.pm-ers jealous. ;-)
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From david at cantrell.org.uk  Wed Dec  3 14:58:58 2008
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 14:58:58 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <20081203145858.GI14408@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 02:34:46AM +0000, Lyle wrote:

> David Cantrell did an interesting thing on closures (which I'm sure I'll 
> find very useful once I fully understand it :)

Thankyou!

If B&B.pm ever has a tech meet with a few talks, I'd be happy to do it
again - and there would be more time for questions in a smaller group.
In the meantime, if there's anything that needs a bit of clarification,
please let me know and I'll try to help.

-- 
David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

What is the difference between hearing aliens through the
fillings in your teeth and hearing Jesus in your heart?

From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Wed Dec  3 17:43:12 2008
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Wed,  3 Dec 2008 17:43:12 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com> <49322587.5030904@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081203120546.14088.9480@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<16afc9550812030428j5ba4684ds71a592f657d30c49@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20081203174312.14088.9484@edison.ioppublishing.com>

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From paulm at paulm.com  Wed Dec  3 19:02:03 2008
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 19:02:03 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20081203174312.14088.9484@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com> <49322587.5030904@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081203120546.14088.9480@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<16afc9550812030428j5ba4684ds71a592f657d30c49@mail.gmail.com>
	<PGM.20081203174312.14088.9484@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0812031102g1856d1b3l6e0a2069846e8bde@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 5:43 PM, Peter Haworth
<pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:28:51 +0000, Alex Francis wrote:
>> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Peter Haworth wrote:
>> > On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 05:32:55 +0000, Lyle wrote:
>> >> > A lightening talk
>> >
>> > Should be "lightning"
>>
>> I'm thinking you're a wizard. http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/intp.htm
>>
>> "...they tend to see distinctions and inconsistencies in thought and
>> language instantaneously..."
>
> Yes, that whole page seems to be a mostly accurate description of my character.

INTP is the classic hacker Myers-Briggs type. They're quite uncommon
in the general populace, IIRC.

>
> --
>        Peter Haworth   pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com
> "In other words, it's the ``Blow up this Entire Planet and Possibly One or
>  Two Others We Noticed on our Way Out Here'' operator."
>                -- Damian Conway, Exegesis 5
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>

From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Wed Dec  3 19:26:57 2008
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 19:26:57 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <edcafa7d0812031126g634cc824tcc58e250e8327e12@mail.gmail.com>

2008/11/30 Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com>:
> Oh and it's seems that the inner London Cabal must to have a rule where
> it's fine to talk to Lyle, as long as no other Cabal members see you do
> it, lol ;)

I meant to say hello, when I saw your badge, but you were on the way
to somewhere and I failed associate the badge with a face as I was
pre-occupied choosing books.

The badger talk was great : http://www.badgerpower.com

A.

-- 
http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk
LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Thu Dec  4 06:13:59 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 06:13:59 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <edcafa7d0812031126g634cc824tcc58e250e8327e12@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>
	<edcafa7d0812031126g634cc824tcc58e250e8327e12@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49377527.3060805@cosmicperl.com>

Aaron Trevena wrote:
> I meant to say hello, when I saw your badge, but you were on the way
> to somewhere and I failed associate the badge with a face as I was
> pre-occupied choosing books.
>   

Didn't realise you were there... Hope I didn't seem rude as I didn't say 
hello. Don't know what you look like, ever time I tried to take a peek 
at peoples badges they seemed to be facing the other way :s
  You could always gimme a pic to go on the people page (and everyone 
else for that matter, hint hint)


Lyle

 From New York Hotel

From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Thu Dec  4 10:15:33 2008
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Thu,  4 Dec 2008 10:15:33 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Next meeting
References: <PGM.20081117111619.21146.9440@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<PGM.20081124121251.21939.9459@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<16afc9550811240428u50452871r379e20d7436eb8d6@mail.gmail.com>
	<492C9D04.5070800@cosmicperl.com>
	<d2cea6400811260332l6976b551qae3673b584d44131@mail.gmail.com>
	<50fec4060811260528v17d58a7fh44d8f4b674b1fede@mail.gmail.com>
	<49321279.3040505@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081203112601.14088.9478@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<50fec4060812030601m4710170fg81c89e76c6e6d311@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20081204101533.14088.9485@edison.ioppublishing.com>

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From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Thu Dec  4 12:57:58 2008
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 12:57:58 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <49377527.3060805@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>
	<edcafa7d0812031126g634cc824tcc58e250e8327e12@mail.gmail.com>
	<49377527.3060805@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <edcafa7d0812040457q7212a5f7k6f9a1a6ba3725ae8@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/4 Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com>:
> Didn't realise you were there... Hope I didn't seem rude as I didn't say
> hello.

No - everybody was pre-occupied finding rooms for the talks they
wanted to see, including myself.

> Don't know what you look like, ever time I tried to take a peek
> at peoples badges they seemed to be facing the other way :s

I had my namebadged grabbed and read a couple of times - Joel
recognised me and checked my badge to confirm :)

There might have been a picture of me in Dave Cross' talk. do not,
repeat, do not, use that one !

A.

-- 
http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk
LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting

From dave at dave.org.uk  Thu Dec  4 20:55:55 2008
From: dave at dave.org.uk (Dave Cross)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 20:55:55 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <edcafa7d0812040457q7212a5f7k6f9a1a6ba3725ae8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>	<edcafa7d0812031126g634cc824tcc58e250e8327e12@mail.gmail.com>	<49377527.3060805@cosmicperl.com>
	<edcafa7d0812040457q7212a5f7k6f9a1a6ba3725ae8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <493843DB.6070607@dave.org.uk>

Aaron Trevena wrote:

> There might have been a picture of me in Dave Cross' talk. do not,
> repeat, do not, use that one !

http://www.slideshare.net/davorg/ye-complete-history-of-ye-perle-mongers-of-london-towne-parte-one-presentation/

Slide 16 :-)

Dave...

From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Fri Dec  5 11:38:52 2008
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:38:52 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] reaching out to local students
Message-ID: <edcafa7d0812050338vd991e5em2f6b6395723430de@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

When I was working with Avbrief as a contractor they managed to
recruit a couple of students/graduates from UWE and they picked up
perl pretty quickly (hello rob!) and have since become pretty damn
good.

I'm hoping there are more like them, and that, as I was in uni, they'd
be up for learning some of the practical programming skills we use day
to day in perl development - testing, documentation, debugging,
logging, using libraries, etc - as well as adding Perl to their list
of skills and tools for the real world after graduating.

So does anybody have any contact with  U o Bath, U o Bristol and UWE ?
If I remember correctly, UWE used to have a fairly active computing
society - it would be good to link to them, and find out if Bristol
has one.

I'm hoping to get the devon/cornwall perl monger group networking with
Plymouth, Exeter and CUC, there are already some links between us and
termisco at plymouth but anybody who knows people at Plymouth, Exeter
or other HE institutions around here would be cool.

Cheers,

A.

-- 
http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk
LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting

From paulm at paulm.com  Fri Dec  5 11:46:35 2008
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:46:35 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] reaching out to local students
In-Reply-To: <edcafa7d0812050338vd991e5em2f6b6395723430de@mail.gmail.com>
References: <edcafa7d0812050338vd991e5em2f6b6395723430de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0812050346t1ddb93d6v9b3c96de07325d4e@mail.gmail.com>

I have some contacts at UWE and probably Bristol too. If you're still
interested, let me know when you have something more concrete.

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Aaron Trevena <aaron.trevena at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> When I was working with Avbrief as a contractor they managed to
> recruit a couple of students/graduates from UWE and they picked up
> perl pretty quickly (hello rob!) and have since become pretty damn
> good.
>
> I'm hoping there are more like them, and that, as I was in uni, they'd
> be up for learning some of the practical programming skills we use day
> to day in perl development - testing, documentation, debugging,
> logging, using libraries, etc - as well as adding Perl to their list
> of skills and tools for the real world after graduating.
>
> So does anybody have any contact with  U o Bath, U o Bristol and UWE ?
> If I remember correctly, UWE used to have a fairly active computing
> society - it would be good to link to them, and find out if Bristol
> has one.
>
> I'm hoping to get the devon/cornwall perl monger group networking with
> Plymouth, Exeter and CUC, there are already some links between us and
> termisco at plymouth but anybody who knows people at Plymouth, Exeter
> or other HE institutions around here would be cool.
>
> Cheers,
>
> A.
>
> --
> http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk
> LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>

From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Fri Dec  5 12:22:52 2008
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:22:52 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] reaching out to local students
In-Reply-To: <c37577dd0812050346t1ddb93d6v9b3c96de07325d4e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <edcafa7d0812050338vd991e5em2f6b6395723430de@mail.gmail.com>
	<c37577dd0812050346t1ddb93d6v9b3c96de07325d4e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <edcafa7d0812050422j4cd35229m51de40731aa6c731@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/5 Paul Makepeace <paulm at paulm.com>:
> I have some contacts at UWE and probably Bristol too. If you're still
> interested, let me know when you have something more concrete.

Sounds good.

Trying to work on a plan of what can be usefully done.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

A.

-- 
http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk
LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting

From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Fri Dec  5 12:52:10 2008
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:52:10 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] reaching out to local students
In-Reply-To: <edcafa7d0812050422j4cd35229m51de40731aa6c731@mail.gmail.com>
References: <edcafa7d0812050338vd991e5em2f6b6395723430de@mail.gmail.com>
	<c37577dd0812050346t1ddb93d6v9b3c96de07325d4e@mail.gmail.com>
	<edcafa7d0812050422j4cd35229m51de40731aa6c731@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <edcafa7d0812050452s214c4aa0re8831be2222f9fe6@mail.gmail.com>

2008/12/5 Aaron Trevena <aaron.trevena at gmail.com>:
> 2008/12/5 Paul Makepeace <paulm at paulm.com>:
>> I have some contacts at UWE and probably Bristol too. If you're still
>> interested, let me know when you have something more concrete.
>
> Sounds good.
>
> Trying to work on a plan of what can be usefully done.
>
> Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

I've added a page to the wiki to outline what I was thinking about.

It's a work in progress so far though.

Would be good to list university groups we have links with, resources
that they might find useful, etc.

Also trying to start a students.pm perl global monger group, that
could be quite cool.

A.

-- 
http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk
LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting

From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Fri Dec  5 16:16:36 2008
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Fri,  5 Dec 2008 16:16:36 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20081205161636.14088.9491@edison.ioppublishing.com>

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From paulm at paulm.com  Fri Dec  5 16:34:21 2008
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:34:21 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20081205161636.14088.9491@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081205161636.14088.9491@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0812050834u2c9739b2o91081c7f0c790141@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 4:16 PM, Peter Haworth
<pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 02:34:46 +0000, Lyle wrote:
>> I don't take a lot of notes. Everything (I think) was recorded so you'll
>> be able to watch the bits that interest you.
>
> I take a few more notes than Lyle, so here are my impressions:
>
> I had to get up at 5:45, to catch the 6:30 train. Despite the freezing
> weather, there were still revellers hanging around a couple of the clubs
> I passed on my way to the station, who had presumably been partying all
> through the night.  I can only admire their stamina, regardless of its
> foolhardy application.
>
> The trip to the venue was pretty uneventful, other than my surprise and
> disgust at the cost of a Zone 1 single fare. Four quid for a 15 minute
> journey! However, as soon as I got there, I was obliged to carry an

The reason it's so expensive is to encourage you to get an Oyster
card, which you can do anonymously now. It's a 3quid deposit, and
gives you 1.50 Zone 1 fares, and they auto-convert your day's spending
into the nearest minimum travel card fare if you take several
journeys. I don't think there's any advantage to using paper tickets
any more, at all.

Thanks for this summary - some useful pointers to which talks to pay
extra attention to (and not...).

P

> incredibly heavy box of books up to the O'Reilly stand. I was a bit
> confused that all of Josie's boxes had Wiley's branding rather than
> O'Reilly's, despite their contents. What's the relationship there?
>
> After a bit of random milling about, everyone headed into the main lecture
> hall for Mark Keating's introduction to the workshop, after which was
> Dave Cross's very entertaining history of London.pm. I especially liked
> the fact that this talk included a mention of the outrage caused in some
> parts of the community by the "Perl is my bitch" T-shirts, yet ended
> with the famous photo of Graeg McCarroll and the camel, underlined by
> Dave's final words: "We f*ck camels!"
>
> Leon Brocard gave a quick run down of 10 of his modules that he hasn't
> already talked about. My favourites were:
> * App::Cache, which caches arbitrary perl data structures for a set
>  amount of time. Useful if you don't care about the size of the cache,
>  and has a handy convenience method for transparently caching web pages
> * HTML::Fraction, converts strings like "1/5" into character references
>  like "&#8533;", as used in Leon's recipe database
> * Image::WorldMap, plots points on a world map image, with optional
>  labels which don't overlap, as used by the Perl monger World Map
> * Term::ProgressBar::Simple, displays a progress bar controlled by a
>  simple tied variable
>
> David Cantrell tried to convince the masses that closures are actually
> simple, and extremely useful. His view is that they are basically
> code with data attached; the inverse of objects, which are data with
> code attached. He also made a good analogy between the class/object
> distinction and the sub/closure distinction.  Unfortunately, the example
> from CPU::Emulator::Z80 focussed too much on the details of z80 emulation,
> and not enough on the benefits gained by using closures. The other
> example from Sort::MultipleFields was more lucid, but a diagram would
> have been a big help to anyone who can't convert from unfamiliar code
> to data structures in their head.
>
> Adrian Witas was almost completely impenetrable when talking about
> Abstract::Meta::Class, which he was supposed to be presenting as an
> alternative to Moose, but didn't make that clear at all. In point of fact,
> he didn't make anything clear at all. AMC may indeed be the bee's knees,
> but Adrian failed to give any kind of rationale for its existence or
> its differences from Moose.
>
> Mike Whitaker did a good job of introducing Moose, showing a bunch of
> cool features. Moose seems to do an excellent job of removing boiler
> plate code, and turning class construction into the kind of declarative
> affair which other languages enjoy.
>
> Then I went to Matt Trout's talk on Acme::Yorkshire, which I was just
> expecting to be a surface-level explanation of a module which converted
> text to Yorkshire dialect, much like the Swedish Chef translator
> module which I can no longer find. Instead, it was a description of how
> Devel::Declare can be used to radically alter perl's syntax, enabling
> the creation of new control constructs such as:
>  method($foo, at bar){
>    # $self is available, and there's no need for a trailing semi
>  }
> It took me a while to acclimatise to Matt's presentation style, in which
> the slides at first didn't appear to match up with what he was gleefully
> bellowing about, but this was a fascinating, funny and frightening talk.
>
> Due to the press of perl mongers in Subway at lunch time, I managed to
> get a free cookie, because the lone girl behind the counter couldn't
> spare the time to wait for me to find the correct change. That's the
> power of bulk buying!
>
> After lunch, I went to Andy Wardley's "Badger Power" talk, which still not
> having read any of the abstracts, I was was expecting to be about Template
> Toolkit. I've only briefly tried TT during an aborted rewrite of a major
> system at work, and would like to give it a better try at some point,
> so this seemed like it would be reasonably useful to me. However, Andy
> was actually talking about his new Badger lightweight foundation classes,
> which provide simple and consistent APIs for all manner of highly useful
> features: error handling, debugging, exporting, lazy loading, constant
> declarations, en/decoding, testing, file name and handle manipulation,
> and last but not least, class construction, which combines basically
> all of the above. This was a great presentation of what looks like an
> incredibly useful set of tools. Next time I need to create a new class,
> I'll probably use Badger.
>
> I caught the last few minutes of Abigail's character class talk, which
> overran not only his scheduled slot, but also the intersession break. The
> bit I saw reminded me that perl allows you to create your own reusable
> character classes, which could cut down some level of repeated code,
> but I'm not sure it's of major use to me at the moment.
>
> Abigail's overrun meant that Joel Berstein's interesting talk about
> XML::Pastor was seriously rushed. Pastor looks like a nifty way of mapping
> simply between perl classes and XML Schema. It's basically ORM for XML,
> which could be really useful for me, except that most of the XML I handle
> at work uses DTDs rather than schemata.
>
> Then I had the misfortune to attend another talk given by Adrian Witas.
> This one was about ORM, specifically Persistent::Entity. Adrian again
> failed to give any indication of the benefits of this module over the
> alternatives. I considered escaping to Tim Bunce's profiling talk about
> Devel::NYTProf, but I'd already asked a question, and there was only
> about three other people in the room, so that didn't seem very polite. I
> should have had the courage of my convictions, as Tim's talk was voted
> one of the best in show.
>
> Never mind, osfameron's talk on functional programming was another
> instance of Devel::Declare to the rescue, giving perl native-looking
> currying, monads, list comprehension and pattern matching (of function
> arguments to multiply defined subroutines, not of strings to regexen),
> or as osfameron put it, "combining general perl evil with the goodness
> of haskell". Like the Acme::Yorkshire talk, this illicited gasps, moans
> and laughter from the audience, and I for one can't wait for Acme::Monad
> to be released.
>
> Then it was the lightning talks, which were all good, for a variety of
> reasons:
> Action Aid presented a video showing how the money from the raffle would
> be spent.
> Leo Lapworth presented his 20-minute "DBIx::Class for (advanced)
> beginners" talk in only five minutes, but still managed to make sense,
> and teach me something new.
> Someone whose name I forget presented TAP::Formatter::HTML, build on
> top of TAP::Parser, which produces a fancy HTML page from the output
> of a perl test. This is a simple overview with drill-down capability,
> making it easy to save and interpret your test results.
> David Leadbeater presented his work on Wikipedia summaries, which enable
> searching Wikipedia via a variety of interfaces. Of special interest
> was the DNS query method: host -t txt perl.wp.dg.cx
> Edmund von der Burg showed his scarily short Sudoku solver (3 lines of
> less than 80 characters), and expounded on the virtues of perl golf:
> thinking about problems in a different way, and understanding exactly
> what every part of your code is doing.
> Paul Makepeace gave some details of what investor-dynamics.com does,
> and invited job applications.
> Matt Trout loudly disputed the view which he thinks most people have; that
> they aren't good enough to contribute to the community. Everyone should
> write reuseable code and post it on CPAN. Failing that, submit patches
> to module authors. Failing that, submit tests, so they can at least see
> what the bug is, and know when they've fixed it. Or while you're still
> learning how to use a module, write up your experiences as documentation,
> since you know what problems you're facing, which the author has probably
> forgotten about.
>
> Finally, the raffle. The winner of the iPod donated it to Mark Keating,
> who as organiser wasn't allowed to participate. Mark promptly auctioned
> it off to raise another GBP107.01 for Action Aid.
>
> Just before heading off to the pub, Greg McCarroll handed over the reins
> of London.pm to Leon Brocard. The pub was reserved in its entirety for
> workshop attendees, and the food and drink was all paid for by sponsors of
> the event, though the room was a bit too packed for even distribution of
> comestibles. Nevertheless, this was a great opportunity to match faces
> to names, and I had some interesting conversation with Tim Bunce and
> Paul Makepeace.
>
> Lyle and I left relatively early, in case of bad traffic. It took overly
> long to crawl out of London, and we were beset by roadworks and a patch
> of incredibly thick fog on the motorway. Even so, we got back to Bristol
> before midnight, which I hadn't expected at the start of the day.
>
> All in all, a great day out. I'm looking forward to next year.
>
> --
>        Peter Haworth   pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com
> "Birds naturally prefer early binding to late binding; worms will
>  naturally disagree.  Rolling stones gather no type constraints."
>                -- Larry Wall
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>

From alex at alexfrancis.org.uk  Fri Dec  5 17:25:52 2008
From: alex at alexfrancis.org.uk (Alex Francis)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 17:25:52 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20081205161636.14088.9491@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081205161636.14088.9491@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550812050925h8aa719fv3e8f88ccfd7b1f68@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 4:16 PM, Peter Haworth
<pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com> wrote:
> (lots of notes)

Thanks Peter and others for your summaries, very helpful for those of
us who couldn't make it :-)
Alex

From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Fri Dec  5 17:31:21 2008
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 17:31:21 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20081205161636.14088.9491@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081205161636.14088.9491@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <edcafa7d0812050931m750ec86x2dbed7c87fb5a466@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Peter,

Do you have a blog or web page you can post that on, and I'll link
from the lpw wiki.

A.


-- 
http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk
LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting

From david at cantrell.org.uk  Fri Dec  5 18:30:27 2008
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 18:30:27 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <c37577dd0812050834u2c9739b2o91081c7f0c790141@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081205161636.14088.9491@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<c37577dd0812050834u2c9739b2o91081c7f0c790141@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081205183027.GA5698@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 04:34:21PM +0000, Paul Makepeace wrote:

> The reason it's so expensive is to encourage you to get an Oyster
> card, which you can do anonymously now. It's a 3quid deposit, and
> gives you 1.50 Zone 1 fares, and they auto-convert your day's spending
> into the nearest minimum travel card fare if you take several
> journeys. I don't think there's any advantage to using paper tickets
> any more, at all.

There is - Oyster pre-pay doesn't work on most trains.  And when it
does, it interacts poorly with travelcards.  Oh, and you can't get a one
day travelcard on Oyster.

> Peter Haworth wrote:
> > David Cantrell tried to convince the masses that closures are actually
> > simple, and extremely useful. His view is that they are basically
> > code with data attached; the inverse of objects, which are data with
> > code attached. He also made a good analogy between the class/object
> > distinction and the sub/closure distinction.  Unfortunately, the example
> > from CPU::Emulator::Z80 focussed too much on the details of z80 emulation,
> > and not enough on the benefits gained by using closures.

Hmmm

How about I edit it to talk about generic 8- and 16-bit data types early
on, and how the closures allow the sorts of access I need, and then show
how it applies to the emulator, refactoring etc?

> > example from Sort::MultipleFields was more lucid, but a diagram would
> > have been a big help to anyone who can't convert from unfamiliar code
> > to data structures in their head.

I'm not sure that a diagram would help, cos it's not really creating a
data structure, but perhaps I could take the example of sorting books by
author/title/year/spine colour, and as I explain how it builds up the
closurey sort function, show a *non*-closurey equivalent being built up
next to it.

And thankyou - constructive criticism is *most* useful!

-- 
David Cantrell | Official London Perl Mongers Bad Influence

    Seven o'clock in the morning is something that
    happens to those less fortunate than me

From paulm at paulm.com  Fri Dec  5 19:00:03 2008
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:00:03 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <20081205183027.GA5698@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081205161636.14088.9491@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<c37577dd0812050834u2c9739b2o91081c7f0c790141@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081205183027.GA5698@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0812051100p629376efh3292ac9eb2225ab2@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 6:30 PM, David Cantrell <david at cantrell.org.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 04:34:21PM +0000, Paul Makepeace wrote:
>
>> The reason it's so expensive is to encourage you to get an Oyster
>> card, which you can do anonymously now. It's a 3quid deposit, and
>> gives you 1.50 Zone 1 fares, and they auto-convert your day's spending
>> into the nearest minimum travel card fare if you take several
>> journeys. I don't think there's any advantage to using paper tickets
>> any more, at all.
>
> There is - Oyster pre-pay doesn't work on most trains.  And when it

Ah yes, true.

> does, it interacts poorly with travelcards.  Oh, and you can't get a one
> day travelcard on Oyster.

I thought that was the point - the fare is automagically capped to the
nearest travelcard equiv price?

P

From adamairmailed at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  5 19:30:01 2008
From: adamairmailed at yahoo.com (adam armfield)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:30:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [BristolBathPM] reaching out to local students
Message-ID: <702874.76680.qm@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

some uni's have a placement office which might be worth a go for recruiting students, a sandwich year arrangment, you can always take them on full time after that if it's agreeable all round.


      


From robin.ge at gmail.com  Fri Dec  5 20:10:23 2008
From: robin.ge at gmail.com (Robin Edwards)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 20:10:23 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] reaching out to local students
In-Reply-To: <702874.76680.qm@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <702874.76680.qm@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <303603130812051210q23395bdawf38c58378398410@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Aaron,

As you know I am in my final year at UWE, not sure about a computer
society as such I think theres a 'technology' society though. I think
a student pm sounds like a great idea and would definitely be up for
getting involved. I haven't managed to make it to any of the b&b pm
meet ups yet as they have clashed with other arrangements sorry guys,

Rob

From david at cantrell.org.uk  Fri Dec  5 20:28:20 2008
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 20:28:20 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <c37577dd0812051100p629376efh3292ac9eb2225ab2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081205161636.14088.9491@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<c37577dd0812050834u2c9739b2o91081c7f0c790141@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081205183027.GA5698@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<c37577dd0812051100p629376efh3292ac9eb2225ab2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081205202820.GA21539@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 07:00:03PM +0000, Paul Makepeace wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 6:30 PM, David Cantrell <david at cantrell.org.uk> wrote:
> > There is - Oyster pre-pay doesn't work on most trains.  And when it
> Ah yes, true.

> > does, it interacts poorly with travelcards.  Oh, and you can't get a one
> > day travelcard on Oyster.
> I thought that was the point - the fare is automagically capped to the
> nearest travelcard equiv price?

Except that you don't get a travelcard.  Remember, travelcards cover
trains too.

I think this is more of a london.pm topic though - or
uk.transport.london.

-- 
David Cantrell | Reality Engineer, Ministry of Information

I think the most difficult moment that anyone could face is seeing
their domestic servants, whether maid or drivers, run away
  -- Abdul Rahman Al-Sheikh, writing at
     http://www.arabnews.com/?article=38558

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Mon Dec  8 02:03:46 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 02:03:46 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] reaching out to local students
In-Reply-To: <edcafa7d0812050338vd991e5em2f6b6395723430de@mail.gmail.com>
References: <edcafa7d0812050338vd991e5em2f6b6395723430de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <493C8082.4020709@cosmicperl.com>

Aaron Trevena wrote:
> Hello,
>
> When I was working with Avbrief as a contractor they managed to
> recruit a couple of students/graduates from UWE and they picked up
> perl pretty quickly (hello rob!) and have since become pretty damn
> good.
>   

Funnily enough, on the way back from LPW I was talking to Peter about 
the UWE contacts I made when first relaunching this list. I was 
disappointed that this was never taken any further at the time, but 
looking back it was probably a bit to soon to be looking at things like 
this, when the list had only just got going again and we hadn't even had 
our first meet.
  I spoke about taking the free Perl course I've ran to the Uni, much 
the way that David Cross ran the CGI course at LPW. I think we are now 
in a good position to do this. This list has gone from strength to 
strength, meets are getting bigger, Nige is good enough to organize all 
the bath stuff, Peter sorted out the last meet, we've done some mini 
tech talks to each other and I've just come back from NYC to a load of 
posts to catch up with. All this puts a big smile on my face :)
  If we could put together some presentations about the group and some 
of the new things in Perl to pitch to the Uni staff. Then follow up with 
free Perl courses at the Uni for the student we'd have a winning mix.
  I was lucky enough to talk to Tim Bunce in the evening of the LPW, I 
asked him about his presentation skills which I was very impressed with, 
he recommended toastmasters which I have every intention of going to to, 
to improve my own skills at this. After all, rather than trying to hound 
other people to do talks at the Uni (like I did originally) I really 
should lead by example...
  Beyond the Uni's I know that there are a lot of very capable 
programmers that didn't go to Uni. When I was at secondary school there 
were plenty of us that would have loved to have the chance to learn some 
programming. All schools have a computer dept these days, so I think 
this should be another avenue we look down.

Anyone who is looking at brushing up on their presentation skills are 
more than welcome to come to toastmasters with me.
I think Alex and Mark are in a really good line to help inspire 
students, movies and football are both very popular areas.


Lyle


From nigel at turbo10.com  Tue Dec  9 09:41:57 2008
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 09:41:57 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Bristol&Bath.pm XMAS Meetup - The Raven,
	Bath - 7pm Tue 16th Dec
Message-ID: <50fec4060812090141w433a0facv75e7eb42769a796d@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

      With the silly season well under way its time to have another meeting
of the Bristol and Bath Perl Mongers group [1]. There will be lightning
talks (optional), good conversation, beer and pies! What more could a Perl
monger want? Everyone is welcome and you don't even need to know anything
about Perl.

     * When*

7pm, Tue 16th of December

      *Where*

The Raven Pub [2]
Queen St
Bath

The pub is a little tricky to find but if you print out this map[3] - you
should be fine.

See you there,


Nige


[1]   http://perl.bristolbath.org
[2]   http://www.theravenofbath.co.uk
[3]   http://www.theravenofbath.co.uk/how_to_find_us.html

p.s. please forward on to any forums you think are appropriate
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From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Thu Dec 11 13:58:27 2008
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:58:27 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081205161636.14088.9491@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<c37577dd0812050834u2c9739b2o91081c7f0c790141@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081205183027.GA5698@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
Message-ID: <PGM.20081211135827.24934.9500@edison.ioppublishing.com>

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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Thu Dec 11 15:30:51 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:30:51 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Bristol&Bath.pm XMAS Meetup - The
 Raven, Bath - 7pm Tue 16th Dec
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060812090141w433a0facv75e7eb42769a796d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060812090141w433a0facv75e7eb42769a796d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4941322B.5010007@cosmicperl.com>

Nigel Hamilton wrote:
>       *Where*
>
> The Raven Pub

By the way they have live acoustic music at 8:30, serving food till 8:30 
as well.


Lyle


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Dec 12 05:14:03 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 05:14:03 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] New Wiki and Toastmasters update
Message-ID: <4941F31B.2050301@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  The next Wiki is up and running for Perl Certified Hosting. I'm sorry 
our site isn't a Wiki yet, but it's taking Phil a bit longer to get our 
current style into TWiki, I just didn't want our site to look like a 
normal Wiki. (Phil is on this list, so feel free to moan at him to hurry 
up :)
http://www.perlcertifiedhosting.com

  I've contacted the local Toastmasters which is held in Yate:-
http://www.northavonspeakers.org.uk/

  Their next meet is not till Thursday 8th January which I'll be doing 
my best to make as I run a class on Thursday that doesn't finish till 7, 
which means I'll be late to most the ones I attend. Fortunately my 
Thursday class isn't on the 8th as we don't start back till the 15th. 
Again let me know if you want to come along and brush up on your public 
speaking skills. After all at some point we'll be doing a BPW, or maybe 
even UKFPGW (UK's Friendly Perl Group Work Shop).


Lyle


From nigel at turbo10.com  Fri Dec 12 05:49:40 2008
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 05:49:40 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] New Wiki and Toastmasters update
In-Reply-To: <4941F31B.2050301@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4941F31B.2050301@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <50fec4060812112149l655c2936x85c22c8f11a288e5@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Lyle,

         All good ideas regarding toastmasters etc. I did toastmasters for a
while and one of their main rules is that everyone should say something
during a meeting. I think the lightning talks (optional) at our social
meetings are a great way for people to improve their skills in speaking and
I hope there will always be a supportive atmosphere at our meetings for
anyone who chooses to speak.


Nige

p.s. we could also include some toastmasters ideas into the meeting? --- but
we can discuss this at the pub.
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From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Fri Dec 12 10:59:50 2008
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:59:50 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081205161636.14088.9491@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<edcafa7d0812050931m750ec86x2dbed7c87fb5a466@mail.gmail.com>
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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Dec 12 17:56:30 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:56:30 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20081212105950.24934.9504@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>	<PGM.20081205161636.14088.9491@edison.ioppublishing.com>	<edcafa7d0812050931m750ec86x2dbed7c87fb5a466@mail.gmail.com>
	<PGM.20081212105950.24934.9504@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <4942A5CE.3070801@cosmicperl.com>

Peter Haworth wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 17:31:21 +0000, Aaron Trevena wrote:
>   
>> Do you have a blog or web page you can post that on, and I'll link
>> from the lpw wiki.
>>     
>
> I actually don't have a web site of my own, but maybe Lyle can put
> this up in the as-yet empty "reviews" section of the B&B.pm web site?
>   

Done. http://perl.bristolbath.org/reviews.html

If anyone wants a blog on B&BPM then I'll happy to setup Moveable type :)


Lyle

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Dec 12 18:03:01 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 18:03:01 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20081212105950.24934.9504@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>	<PGM.20081205161636.14088.9491@edison.ioppublishing.com>	<edcafa7d0812050931m750ec86x2dbed7c87fb5a466@mail.gmail.com>
	<PGM.20081212105950.24934.9504@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <4942A755.4080409@cosmicperl.com>

Peter Haworth wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 17:31:21 +0000, Aaron Trevena wrote:
>   
>> Do you have a blog or web page you can post that on, and I'll link
>> from the lpw wiki.
>>     
>
> I actually don't have a web site of my own, but maybe Lyle can put
> this up in the as-yet empty "reviews" section of the B&B.pm web site?
>   

Come to think of it, you really should give me a bit of blurb about you 
to go on the peoples page. Especially seen as you are the only member 
who's got a review on the site :)

A pic would be nice, but not essential ;-)

Actually that goes for everyone else as well! (I wonder how many times 
I'll mention this before we get a decent number of people on that page) :-P


Lyle

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Sat Dec 13 02:19:07 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 02:19:07 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Next Wiki ready
Message-ID: <49431B9B.2030300@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  http://www.perlproject.org

Up and running :)


Lyle


From nigel at turbo10.com  Sun Dec 14 21:31:12 2008
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 21:31:12 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Meeting in Bath on Tuesday at The Raven
Message-ID: <50fec4060812141331n273ad78ei34e7fff186cab984@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

     I hope you can make it to Bath for our meet up in The Raven on Tuesday
night (7pm).

     If you can't think up an idea for a lightning talk - don't worry -
they're optional. However, if you are thinking of doing one, but are stuck
for an idea, I've got a suggestion.  I'm planning on bringing something
slightly interesting from the top of my desk - but it strikes me that we all
probably have something interesting on our desks[1]. So cast your eye over
your desk ... anything that you can bring along?

Nige

[1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7754115.stm
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From something at amias.org.uk  Mon Dec 15 11:31:56 2008
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:31:56 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <4942A5CE.3070801@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081205161636.14088.9491@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<edcafa7d0812050931m750ec86x2dbed7c87fb5a466@mail.gmail.com>
	<PGM.20081212105950.24934.9504@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<4942A5CE.3070801@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <1229340716.8695.0.camel@localhost>

On Fri, 2008-12-12 at 17:56 +0000, Lyle wrote:
> Peter Haworth wrote:
> > On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 17:31:21 +0000, Aaron Trevena wrote:
> >   
> >> Do you have a blog or web page you can post that on, and I'll link
> >> from the lpw wiki.
> >>     
> >
> > I actually don't have a web site of my own, but maybe Lyle can put
> > this up in the as-yet empty "reviews" section of the B&B.pm web site?
> >   
> 
> Done. http://perl.bristolbath.org/reviews.html
> 
> If anyone wants a blog on B&BPM then I'll happy to setup Moveable type :)

maybe we should just have a blog aggregator like planet underscore.

I've got some code kicking about somewhere that combines rss feeds.

Toodle-pip
Amias


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Mon Dec 15 12:06:47 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:06:47 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <1229340716.8695.0.camel@localhost>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>	<PGM.20081205161636.14088.9491@edison.ioppublishing.com>	<edcafa7d0812050931m750ec86x2dbed7c87fb5a466@mail.gmail.com>	<PGM.20081212105950.24934.9504@edison.ioppublishing.com>	<4942A5CE.3070801@cosmicperl.com>
	<1229340716.8695.0.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <49464857.4050305@cosmicperl.com>

Amias Channer wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-12-12 at 17:56 +0000, Lyle wrote:
>   
>> Peter Haworth wrote:
>>     
>>> On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 17:31:21 +0000, Aaron Trevena wrote:
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> Do you have a blog or web page you can post that on, and I'll link
>>>> from the lpw wiki.
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> I actually don't have a web site of my own, but maybe Lyle can put
>>> this up in the as-yet empty "reviews" section of the B&B.pm web site?
>>>   
>>>       
>> Done. http://perl.bristolbath.org/reviews.html
>>
>> If anyone wants a blog on B&BPM then I'll happy to setup Moveable type :)
>>     
>
> maybe we should just have a blog aggregator like planet underscore.
>   

Have I got the URL wrong, or is it not up at the moment:-
http://www.underscore.org.uk/

> I've got some code kicking about somewhere that combines rss feeds.
>   

Sounds good :)


Lyle


From alex.francis at gmail.com  Mon Dec 15 12:12:27 2008
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:12:27 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <49464857.4050305@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081205161636.14088.9491@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<edcafa7d0812050931m750ec86x2dbed7c87fb5a466@mail.gmail.com>
	<PGM.20081212105950.24934.9504@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<4942A5CE.3070801@cosmicperl.com> <1229340716.8695.0.camel@localhost>
	<49464857.4050305@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550812150412q9cc1b25wda397e8b07788fe4@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
>
> Have I got the URL wrong, or is it not up at the moment:-
> http://www.underscore.org.uk/
>

http://www.under-score.org.uk/

From something at amias.org.uk  Mon Dec 15 13:51:12 2008
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:51:12 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <49464857.4050305@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081205161636.14088.9491@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<edcafa7d0812050931m750ec86x2dbed7c87fb5a466@mail.gmail.com>
	<PGM.20081212105950.24934.9504@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<4942A5CE.3070801@cosmicperl.com> <1229340716.8695.0.camel@localhost>
	<49464857.4050305@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <1229349072.8695.26.camel@localhost>

On Mon, 2008-12-15 at 12:06 +0000, Lyle wrote:
> > I've got some code kicking about somewhere that combines rss feeds.
> >   
> 
> Sounds good :)

the planet underscore one runs out of a google docs spreadsheet which
contains a list of feeds and their urls , we could do this or we could
just have an xml file on the server for that . I think we wont have that
many changes to the list to need automation.

An example of the aggregator script can be seen in widget form at
http://blog.amias.org.uk/title/E_Democracy

We could just use that little widget directly and then people can in
embed it wherever they like .

Toodle-pip
Amias


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Tue Dec 16 00:07:23 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 00:07:23 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <1229349072.8695.26.camel@localhost>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>	<PGM.20081205161636.14088.9491@edison.ioppublishing.com>	<edcafa7d0812050931m750ec86x2dbed7c87fb5a466@mail.gmail.com>	<PGM.20081212105950.24934.9504@edison.ioppublishing.com>	<4942A5CE.3070801@cosmicperl.com>
	<1229340716.8695.0.camel@localhost>	<49464857.4050305@cosmicperl.com>
	<1229349072.8695.26.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <4946F13B.4060608@cosmicperl.com>

Amias Channer wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-12-15 at 12:06 +0000, Lyle wrote:
>   
>>> I've got some code kicking about somewhere that combines rss feeds.
>>>   
>>>       
>> Sounds good :)
>>     
>
> the planet underscore one runs out of a google docs spreadsheet which
> contains a list of feeds and their urls , we could do this or we could
> just have an xml file on the server for that . I think we wont have that
> many changes to the list to need automation.
>
> An example of the aggregator script can be seen in widget form at
> http://blog.amias.org.uk/title/E_Democrac
 From that page:-
"The box is fetched by as an included javascript which is actually a cgi 
script that fetches rss feeds then outputs them as javascript code which 
writes the html which you see in the box. oh and it drags in a css file 
and some images as well ."

I'd like the page to be SEO friendly. Does it have to use JS, or can it 
just embed the CGI output with SSI or something?


Lyle

From something at amias.org.uk  Tue Dec 16 11:05:13 2008
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:05:13 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <4946F13B.4060608@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081205161636.14088.9491@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<edcafa7d0812050931m750ec86x2dbed7c87fb5a466@mail.gmail.com>
	<PGM.20081212105950.24934.9504@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<4942A5CE.3070801@cosmicperl.com> <1229340716.8695.0.camel@localhost>
	<49464857.4050305@cosmicperl.com> <1229349072.8695.26.camel@localhost>
	<4946F13B.4060608@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <1229425513.7623.18.camel@localhost>

On Tue, 2008-12-16 at 00:07 +0000, Lyle wrote:

> > An example of the aggregator script can be seen in widget form at
> > http://blog.amias.org.uk/title/E_Democracy
>  From that page:-
> "The box is fetched by as an included javascript which is actually a cgi 
> script that fetches rss feeds then outputs them as javascript code which 
> writes the html which you see in the box. oh and it drags in a css file 
> and some images as well ."
> 
> I'd like the page to be SEO friendly. Does it have to use JS, or can it 
> just embed the CGI output with SSI or something?

the js is just there to do the embedding stuff , 

e.g <script language="JavaScript"
src="http://bitter.ukcod.org.uk/~amias/feedread2.cgi?postcode=sw90nt"></script>

The cgi script can easily be patched to output the html directly instead
of writing javascript to do it. 

If people can give me a hash like below for their feeds i will set up 
a demo on one of my servers.

{
	name => 'Amias',
	url => 'http://blog.amias.org.uk/rss',
	prefix => 'Amias -',
},

Toodle-pip
Amias


From something at amias.org.uk  Tue Dec 16 11:30:30 2008
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:30:30 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Befriend a geek
Message-ID: <1229427030.7623.29.camel@localhost>

Hello perlmongers ,

still taking registrations for the next week at least
http://www.befriendageek.com/

Toodle-pip
Amias


From something at amias.org.uk  Wed Dec 17 13:38:57 2008
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:38:57 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Feed me
Message-ID: <1229521137.9405.14.camel@localhost>

Hello Perlmongers ,

mmm , nothing like a nice bit of template toolkit faff to sort a
hungover head . so , i have an RSS aggregator ready to roll but we
need to decide how to use it.

We could have a list of people and articles 

e.g.

Amias Channer 
      * The AACS HD-DVD decyption key 
      * XWindows goes 3D
      * Ubuntu Linux on a Medion MD2765
      * Open Standards and why you need them

Nige - Trexy 
      * The first FAB for 2007
      * EUSIDIC conference
      * BBC Backstage Interview
      * Christmas on the Cluster
      * 
or do we want to have all the articles mixed together and sorted by date
like underscore does.

e.g.

Amias - The AACS HD-DVD decyption key 
Nige - The first FAB for 2007
Lyle - Livin la vida ldub

or we could have both or we could display it with lolcats 
http://lol.ianloic.com/feed/blog.amias.org.uk/rss

I was thinking this would be done by a cgi script thats output is cached
by the webserver ( wheres this running btw ? ) so that it only actually
gets run on the first hit of the day.

also , do we want an rss feed out of this or just a webpage ?

thoughts , suggestions , rss urls and code welcomed.

Toodle-pip
Amias

--
enterprise bad influence services since god knows when 


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Thu Dec 18 02:36:07 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 02:36:07 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Feed me
In-Reply-To: <1229521137.9405.14.camel@localhost>
References: <1229521137.9405.14.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <4949B717.3020107@cosmicperl.com>

Amias Channer wrote:
> Hello Perlmongers ,
>
> mmm , nothing like a nice bit of template toolkit faff to sort a
> hungover head . so , i have an RSS aggregator ready to roll but we
> need to decide how to use it.
>
> We could have a list of people and articles 
>
> e.g.
>
> Amias Channer 
>       * The AACS HD-DVD decyption key 
>       * XWindows goes 3D
>       * Ubuntu Linux on a Medion MD2765
>       * Open Standards and why you need them
>
> Nige - Trexy 
>       * The first FAB for 2007
>       * EUSIDIC conference
>       * BBC Backstage Interview
>       * Christmas on the Cluster
>       * 
> or do we want to have all the articles mixed together and sorted by date
> like underscore does.
>
> e.g.
>
> Amias - The AACS HD-DVD decyption key 
> Nige - The first FAB for 2007
> Lyle - Livin la vida ldub
>
> or we could have both or we could display it with lolcats 
> http://lol.ianloic.com/feed/blog.amias.org.uk/rss
>
> I was thinking this would be done by a cgi script thats output is cached
> by the webserver ( wheres this running btw ? ) so that it only actually
> gets run on the first hit of the day.
>
> also , do we want an rss feed out of this or just a webpage ?
>
> thoughts , suggestions , rss urls and code welcomed.
>   

We can run it off my server as a part of the B&BPM website. CentOS 
based, although I think the B&BPM site itself might be on an old Fedora 
xen domU. I can set you up an FTP account.
  I don't think that my current blog (kickboxing, which I really need to 
update) will be suitable, but I do plan a Perl blog soon.
  My vote is to have the feeds mixed in order of date like underscore. I 
think and RSS feed would be good as well so that others could use our 
content. After all, like we discussed at the last meet, I think we'll 
have a lot of good stuff going up next year :)


Lyle


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Thu Dec 18 02:44:12 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 02:44:12 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] What Belbin personality type are you?
Message-ID: <4949B8FC.2080409@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  A few meets ago me and Peter were discussing Belbin personality types. 
I'm guessing many of you have probably come across this test before at a 
previous employer or such...
  In light of group project plans for next year I think it'd be useful 
to know what types we have in the group to better understand peoples 
strengths.
  I know what Peter is, you should be able to figure it out if you were 
at the last meet (Peter strongly pointed out that we were not 
pronouncing vi properly). With all the different projects and ideas I 
come up with it should be easy to figure out what type I am.
  If you haven't done a Belbin evaluation then I've got a copy of one I 
can email to you.


Lyle


From alex.francis at gmail.com  Thu Dec 18 10:31:39 2008
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:31:39 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] What Belbin personality type are you?
In-Reply-To: <4949B8FC.2080409@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4949B8FC.2080409@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550812180231t6d66f147g3d41bc3f071397e2@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 2:44 AM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>  In light of group project plans for next year I think it'd be useful
> to know what types we have in the group to better understand peoples
> strengths.

I'm not familiar with Belbin tests, but I can tell you where I came
out on an "Insights Discovery" profile which is apparently based on
Jung's typology. We answered 25 multiple choice questions about which
of four pairs of descriptive words were most like us, then some magic
software wrote 20 pages about each of us. Spookily accurate stuff,
too.

Just to give you a flavour, here's some of what it said about me:

Conscious: Coordinating Supporter (Accommodating)
Personal/less conscious: Coordinating Supporter (Focused)

"more introverted than extroverted" and "more feeling than thinking".

Some strengths
* Can gain personal fulfilment through helping others.
* Good listener. Can help others achieve their goals.
* Usually weighs up all relevant factors before reaching decisions.
* Strong sense of personal values.
* Skilled at defusing tense situations.

Some weaknesses
* Persistence and loyalty may delay decisive action.
* May find it difficult to impose his will on others.
* May become stubborn if pressured.
* Masks his true feelings to avoid unpleasantness.
* Has difficulty in quick or unprepared articulation.

Value to team
* Can state significant views with clarity and forethought.
* Has a strong sense of duty and takes his work seriously.
* Commits to realistic goals.
* Has a passion for the important values in life.
* Supports others by being loyal, diplomatic and sincere.

And apparently my opposite type is "Director" - extraverted thinking.
Forceful, demanding, decisive, competitive. I'll see them as
headstrong, arrogant, impatient, cold, blunt, overbearing,
insensitive. :-)

There was loads more but I don't want to bore you with it!
Alex

From alex.francis at gmail.com  Thu Dec 18 10:35:32 2008
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:35:32 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Meeting in Bath on Tuesday at The Raven
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060812141331n273ad78ei34e7fff186cab984@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060812141331n273ad78ei34e7fff186cab984@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550812180235q400b0abdrdb064a5a924fb6fe@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 9:31 PM, Nigel Hamilton <nigel at turbo10.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
>      I hope you can make it to Bath for our meet up in The Raven on Tuesday
> night (7pm).
>

Hi folks - sorry I couldn't make it. Lots on at the mo, getting stuck
into a new project and pushing it far enough to know what's next to
work on come January, preparing for arrival of first baby in a few
weeks, making decisions and talking to builders about the extension
we're having built..

Hoping to get to the next one.

Alex

From psykx.out at googlemail.com  Thu Dec 18 11:15:57 2008
From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (max psykx)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:15:57 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Meeting in Bath on Tuesday at The Raven
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060812141331n273ad78ei34e7fff186cab984@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060812141331n273ad78ei34e7fff186cab984@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d2cea6400812180315k569e51d4ta7db9f5682fdd2f1@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry I couldn't make this meeting, I had a nightmare with losing my
card, canceling it and promptly finding it in the jeans pockets i'd
just searched. I had planned a short talk on improved methods on
binary searching, not strictly perl related but on topic enough to be
of some relevance. If I get a chance later today I'll write another
email with it in, bit too busy at the mo.

hope you all had a great time, and I'll catch you at the next meeting.

Max

From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Thu Dec 18 11:39:36 2008
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:39:36 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] What Belbin personality type are you?
References: <4949B8FC.2080409@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20081218113936.24343.9526@edison.ioppublishing.com>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Url: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20081218/1bfa8475/attachment.pl 

From cms at beatworm.co.uk  Thu Dec 18 11:43:57 2008
From: cms at beatworm.co.uk (Colin M. Strickland)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:43:57 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] What Belbin personality type are you?
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550812180231t6d66f147g3d41bc3f071397e2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4949B8FC.2080409@cosmicperl.com>
	<16afc9550812180231t6d66f147g3d41bc3f071397e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <95CD0A4C-2F7E-4E8C-968A-C0CA84867080@beatworm.co.uk>


On 18 Dec 2008, at 10:31, Alex Francis wrote:

> then some magic
> software wrote 20 pages about each of us. Spookily accurate stuff,
> too.

Do you not think that this sort of thing is a bit prone to Horoscope  
techniques? e.g. It's generalised, but tending to flattery. You have a  
strong sense of personal values, which is nice, but I find it hard to  
think of anyone failing to identify with that. What values ? Of  
course, they're 'personal', you're unique and special.

I find it hard to imagine anyone getting dealt the converse - 'you  
have a weak sense of personal values'. And then you might unkindly  
suggest the weaknesses are balanced in the form of the 'rainbow ruse'  
beloved of spiritualists and psychic quackery - you *may* become  
stubborn *if* pressured etc. You mitigate a vague negative with an  
flattering escape clause, and everyone will be able to identify their  
personality as having qualities from both sides at some point or  
another. I doubt any of this would fare well in formal double-blind  
tests for accuracy.

This sort of thing bothers me slightly on a couple of levels. It's a  
bit of a worry if employers formalise this practice, and incorporate  
into staff assessment processes, or hiring decisions. I also fear that  
it plays up to the cult-of-personality and ego-driven individualism  
that I think is an all too prevalent, and unhelpful trope within  
programmer/spod culture in general.

None of this is supposed to specifically apply to Mr. Alex Francis of  
course, who I don't really know, but assume to be an excellent fellow.

-- 
Regards,
Colin M. Strickland


From something at amias.org.uk  Thu Dec 18 12:09:03 2008
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:09:03 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] What Belbin personality type are you?
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20081218113936.24343.9526@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <4949B8FC.2080409@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081218113936.24343.9526@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <1229602143.7820.9.camel@localhost>

On Thu, 2008-12-18 at 11:39 +0000, Peter Haworth wrote:
> My usual complaint in
> this matter is with people who pronouce it in the same way as the word
> "vie", rather than as a shortening of the word "visual", which is what
> the name is based on, and "V" is pretty close to that, really.
> However, despite the choice of the name, I still maintain that it
> should be pronounced as "V I".

Surely its Vie as in Die , Die , Die oh right Esc : q ! 

Toodle-pip
Amias


From paulm at paulm.com  Thu Dec 18 13:07:07 2008
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 13:07:07 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] What Belbin personality type are you?
In-Reply-To: <95CD0A4C-2F7E-4E8C-968A-C0CA84867080@beatworm.co.uk>
References: <4949B8FC.2080409@cosmicperl.com>
	<16afc9550812180231t6d66f147g3d41bc3f071397e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<95CD0A4C-2F7E-4E8C-968A-C0CA84867080@beatworm.co.uk>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0812180507h3982a577y23e195e6c4074aeb@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:43 AM, Colin M. Strickland
<cms at beatworm.co.uk> wrote:
>
> On 18 Dec 2008, at 10:31, Alex Francis wrote:
>
>> then some magic
>> software wrote 20 pages about each of us. Spookily accurate stuff,
>> too.
>
> Do you not think that this sort of thing is a bit prone to Horoscope
> techniques? e.g. It's generalised, but tending to flattery. You have a
> strong sense of personal values, which is nice, but I find it hard to
> think of anyone failing to identify with that. What values ? Of
> course, they're 'personal', you're unique and special.
>
> I find it hard to imagine anyone getting dealt the converse - 'you
> have a weak sense of personal values'. And then you might unkindly
> suggest the weaknesses are balanced in the form of the 'rainbow ruse'
> beloved of spiritualists and psychic quackery - you *may* become
> stubborn *if* pressured etc. You mitigate a vague negative with an
> flattering escape clause, and everyone will be able to identify their
> personality as having qualities from both sides at some point or
> another. I doubt any of this would fare well in formal double-blind
> tests for accuracy.

For one employer I was put through a battery of psychometric tests and
some definitely do not come out flattering. Typically this is in the
form of maxing out in one particular direction (which isn't wholly
positive, think "OCD") at the expense of another. Assessments present
in the form of "maybe too heavily involved in aspect X, and lack of
development in area Y may hinder dealing with situations W and V" or
"over development in aspect X may cause friction with others owing to
lack of Y" etc.

> This sort of thing bothers me slightly on a couple of levels. It's a
> bit of a worry if employers formalise this practice, and incorporate
> into staff assessment processes, or hiring decisions. I also fear that

If it's formalised and metrics are recorded that's a basis for
determining whether it's effective, at least. Assuming the company has
the sense to actually do that assessment :)

**

I was once a mentor on a post-grad programme and we worked as a group
on various tasks, puzzles, and games. Amongst those we did various
psychometric tests, some of which were aimed at groups (Belbin's one
of them, IIRC). Our particular group for whatever reason worked
really, really well - people fell effortlessly into roles, discussions
were quick and productive, there was almost no disagreement amongst
anyone over anything. It was pretty much a perfect team. In the
day-long in the end-of-week challenge, we scored very highly.

Now what was really interesting was that after the challenge the
results of our Belbin (I think) tests were revealed and the
combination of our various team members almost exactly matched with
complementary and equally balanced skills and traits across the board.

I realise this is anecdotal but it was quite a "Wow" moment seeing how
we meshed as a group in practice and how the theory correlated so
well.

P

> it plays up to the cult-of-personality and ego-driven individualism
> that I think is an all too prevalent, and unhelpful trope within
> programmer/spod culture in general.
>
> None of this is supposed to specifically apply to Mr. Alex Francis of
> course, who I don't really know, but assume to be an excellent fellow.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Colin M. Strickland
>
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>

From cms at beatworm.co.uk  Thu Dec 18 14:05:07 2008
From: cms at beatworm.co.uk (Colin M. Strickland)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:05:07 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] What Belbin personality type are you?
In-Reply-To: <c37577dd0812180507h3982a577y23e195e6c4074aeb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4949B8FC.2080409@cosmicperl.com>
	<16afc9550812180231t6d66f147g3d41bc3f071397e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<95CD0A4C-2F7E-4E8C-968A-C0CA84867080@beatworm.co.uk>
	<c37577dd0812180507h3982a577y23e195e6c4074aeb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1AB331B4-3168-4E70-8204-07B758914910@beatworm.co.uk>


On 18 Dec 2008, at 13:07, Paul Makepeace wrote:

> For one employer I was put through a battery of psychometric tests and
> some definitely do not come out flattering. Typically this is in the
> form of maxing out in one particular direction (which isn't wholly
> positive, think "OCD") at the expense of another. Assessments present
> in the form of "maybe too heavily involved in aspect X, and lack of
> development in area Y may hinder dealing with situations W and V" or
> "over development in aspect X may cause friction with others owing to
> lack of Y" etc.
>>
>
> If it's formalised and metrics are recorded that's a basis for
> determining whether it's effective, at least. Assuming the company has
> the sense to actually do that assessment :)
>
> **
>
> I was once a mentor on a post-grad programme and we worked as a group
> on various tasks, puzzles, and games. Amongst those we did various
> psychometric tests, some of which were aimed at groups (Belbin's one
> of them, IIRC). Our particular group for whatever reason worked
> really, really well - people fell effortlessly into roles, discussions
> were quick and productive, there was almost no disagreement amongst
> anyone over anything. It was pretty much a perfect team. In the
> day-long in the end-of-week challenge, we scored very highly.
>
> Now what was really interesting was that after the challenge the
> results of our Belbin (I think) tests were revealed and the
> combination of our various team members almost exactly matched with
> complementary and equally balanced skills and traits across the board.
>
> I realise this is anecdotal but it was quite a "Wow" moment seeing how
> we meshed as a group in practice and how the theory correlated so
> well.


Flattery may have not have been the best term to use, as it's somewhat  
leading, but I wouldn't say that it automatically needed to equate to  
praise. I think there's common aspect of human nature that finds a  
kind of flattery in the 'status' conferred by being formally inspected  
in this manner, being raised from the crowd. A sense in which these  
tests can inherently play up to that, in as much as they draw a  
picture of you as a significantly individual case, because of course,  
you always knew you were different.

I could offer up examples of my own where I've taken part in such  
processes, in detail, and been impressed by the effect but  
underwhelmed by the data, but as you say, they would just been  
anecdotes, so I won't bother.

It's the suspicion that it's pseudo-science that mostly bothers me.  
And I don't see that it necessarily follows that it's improved with a  
formal framework around it and a history of metrics, because at the  
heart of it, not only the judgements, but most of the tests scored to  
calculate them are subjective decisions, and difficult, if not  
impossible, to fix to an objective base.

It opens the door to a systemic labelling of people, which is  
something I'm discouraged by, especially within a corporate structure,  
where it may be informing hidden decisions that could affect you quite  
significantly. It's bad enough when great weight is given to short  
factual tests or examinations, but at least they are usually based  
around empirical results. These 'personality' focused tests strike me  
as something that might be perhaps influenced by how many cups of  
coffee an individual had, or what the weather was like, and it's a bit  
galling to ponder that that sort of event could significantly effect  
your subsequent job offer or career path.

The usual joke to insert at this point from fans of these systems is  
to suggest that I would think that about the whole affair because I'm  
$PERSONALITY_TYPE. Myself I prefer to try and use a mental model in  
which people are mostly vastly more similar than they probably think  
that they are, and tend to be most predictable as crowds :-)

-- 
Regards,
Colin M. Strickland



From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Thu Dec 18 14:22:49 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:22:49 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] What Belbin personality type are you?
In-Reply-To: <95CD0A4C-2F7E-4E8C-968A-C0CA84867080@beatworm.co.uk>
References: <4949B8FC.2080409@cosmicperl.com>	<16afc9550812180231t6d66f147g3d41bc3f071397e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<95CD0A4C-2F7E-4E8C-968A-C0CA84867080@beatworm.co.uk>
Message-ID: <494A5CB9.9000608@cosmicperl.com>

Colin M. Strickland wrote:
> On 18 Dec 2008, at 10:31, Alex Francis wrote:
>   
>> then some magic
>> software wrote 20 pages about each of us. Spookily accurate stuff,
>> too.
>>     
>
> I find it hard to imagine anyone getting dealt the converse - 'you  
> have a weak sense of personal values'. And then you might unkindly  
> suggest the weaknesses are balanced in the form of the 'rainbow ruse'  
> beloved of spiritualists and psychic quackery - you *may* become  
> stubborn *if* pressured etc. You mitigate a vague negative with an  
> flattering escape clause, and everyone will be able to identify their  
> personality as having qualities from both sides at some point or  
> another. I doubt any of this would fare well in formal double-blind  
> tests for accuracy.
>
> This sort of thing bothers me slightly on a couple of levels. It's a  
> bit of a worry if employers formalise this practice, and incorporate  
> into staff assessment processes, or hiring decisions. I also fear that  
> it plays up to the cult-of-personality and ego-driven individualism  
> that I think is an all too prevalent, and unhelpful trope within  
> programmer/spod culture in general.
>   

The Belbin types were designed specifically to evaluate working groups. 
Useless for HR as people always answered the questions for what they 
thought you want to hear, rather than how they actually prefer to work. 
Certainly lists the weaknesses for each type:-
http://www.bell.uts.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/1678/sheet8.pdf

So far we have a Plant (me) and a Monitor evaluator (Peter). My 
secondary was completer finisher (although not very strong). What was 
your secondary Peter?

Found the test I have online:-
http://fhict.fontys.nl/es/MScModules/PM/Shared%20Documents/PM%20lecture%202%20Belbin%20Roles%20Questionaire.pdf

If you haven't done this test then it only takes 5 mins and would be 
really useful to know what we have here...

That said different sides of your personality can come out depending on 
what group you are working in. But generally people stick to similar roles.


Lyle


From paulm at paulm.com  Thu Dec 18 14:30:17 2008
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:30:17 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] What Belbin personality type are you?
In-Reply-To: <1AB331B4-3168-4E70-8204-07B758914910@beatworm.co.uk>
References: <4949B8FC.2080409@cosmicperl.com>
	<16afc9550812180231t6d66f147g3d41bc3f071397e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<95CD0A4C-2F7E-4E8C-968A-C0CA84867080@beatworm.co.uk>
	<c37577dd0812180507h3982a577y23e195e6c4074aeb@mail.gmail.com>
	<1AB331B4-3168-4E70-8204-07B758914910@beatworm.co.uk>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0812180630w2f40f737y2a205453ba6a01e5@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 2:05 PM, Colin M. Strickland <cms at beatworm.co.uk> wrote:
>
> On 18 Dec 2008, at 13:07, Paul Makepeace wrote:
>
>> For one employer I was put through a battery of psychometric tests and
>> some definitely do not come out flattering. Typically this is in the
>> form of maxing out in one particular direction (which isn't wholly
>> positive, think "OCD") at the expense of another. Assessments present
>> in the form of "maybe too heavily involved in aspect X, and lack of
>> development in area Y may hinder dealing with situations W and V" or
>> "over development in aspect X may cause friction with others owing to
>> lack of Y" etc.
>>>
>>
>> If it's formalised and metrics are recorded that's a basis for
>> determining whether it's effective, at least. Assuming the company has
>> the sense to actually do that assessment :)
>>
>> **
>>
>> I was once a mentor on a post-grad programme and we worked as a group
>> on various tasks, puzzles, and games. Amongst those we did various
>> psychometric tests, some of which were aimed at groups (Belbin's one
>> of them, IIRC). Our particular group for whatever reason worked
>> really, really well - people fell effortlessly into roles, discussions
>> were quick and productive, there was almost no disagreement amongst
>> anyone over anything. It was pretty much a perfect team. In the
>> day-long in the end-of-week challenge, we scored very highly.
>>
>> Now what was really interesting was that after the challenge the
>> results of our Belbin (I think) tests were revealed and the
>> combination of our various team members almost exactly matched with
>> complementary and equally balanced skills and traits across the board.
>>
>> I realise this is anecdotal but it was quite a "Wow" moment seeing how
>> we meshed as a group in practice and how the theory correlated so
>> well.
>
>
> Flattery may have not have been the best term to use, as it's somewhat
> leading, but I wouldn't say that it automatically needed to equate to
> praise. I think there's common aspect of human nature that finds a
> kind of flattery in the 'status' conferred by being formally inspected
> in this manner, being raised from the crowd. A sense in which these
> tests can inherently play up to that, in as much as they draw a
> picture of you as a significantly individual case, because of course,
> you always knew you were different.

I am having trouble with this line: a) most of these tests bucket you
into one of 'n' where 'n' is not a particularly large number (MBTI is
16; Enneagrams are 9; etc); b) if this test is adminstered to all
employees that hardly makes anyone special.

All the times I've been involved with psychometric tests, and I also
share your view on they can be dependent on mood, amount of sleep,
etc, it's always been pointed out that they simply provide an idea of
_preference_ not what people _are_.

>
> I could offer up examples of my own where I've taken part in such
> processes, in detail, and been impressed by the effect but
> underwhelmed by the data, but as you say, they would just been
> anecdotes, so I won't bother.
>
> It's the suspicion that it's pseudo-science that mostly bothers me.
> And I don't see that it necessarily follows that it's improved with a
> formal framework around it and a history of metrics, because at the
> heart of it, not only the judgements, but most of the tests scored to
> calculate them are subjective decisions, and difficult, if not
> impossible, to fix to an objective base.
>
> It opens the door to a systemic labelling of people, which is
> something I'm discouraged by, especially within a corporate structure,
> where it may be informing hidden decisions that could affect you quite
> significantly. It's bad enough when great weight is given to short

I think until you can find some hard examples of companies or
organisations actually doing this it's coming across as scaremongery.
I'm not aware in my contracting experience in three dozen + companies
of this ever happening. The most intense psychometric scrutiny I've
been under has only happened as an adjunct.

P

> factual tests or examinations, but at least they are usually based
> around empirical results. These 'personality' focused tests strike me
> as something that might be perhaps influenced by how many cups of
> coffee an individual had, or what the weather was like, and it's a bit
> galling to ponder that that sort of event could significantly effect
> your subsequent job offer or career path.
>
> The usual joke to insert at this point from fans of these systems is
> to suggest that I would think that about the whole affair because I'm
> $PERSONALITY_TYPE. Myself I prefer to try and use a mental model in
> which people are mostly vastly more similar than they probably think
> that they are, and tend to be most predictable as crowds :-)
>
> --
> Regards,
> Colin M. Strickland
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>

From cms at beatworm.co.uk  Thu Dec 18 14:57:24 2008
From: cms at beatworm.co.uk (Colin M. Strickland)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:57:24 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] What Belbin personality type are you?
In-Reply-To: <c37577dd0812180630w2f40f737y2a205453ba6a01e5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4949B8FC.2080409@cosmicperl.com>
	<16afc9550812180231t6d66f147g3d41bc3f071397e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<95CD0A4C-2F7E-4E8C-968A-C0CA84867080@beatworm.co.uk>
	<c37577dd0812180507h3982a577y23e195e6c4074aeb@mail.gmail.com>
	<1AB331B4-3168-4E70-8204-07B758914910@beatworm.co.uk>
	<c37577dd0812180630w2f40f737y2a205453ba6a01e5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <949AD48C-5D65-4B33-89BF-527B3226738E@beatworm.co.uk>


On 18 Dec 2008, at 14:30, Paul Makepeace wrote:
>>
>
> I am having trouble with this line: a) most of these tests bucket you
> into one of 'n' where 'n' is not a particularly large number (MBTI is
> 16; Enneagrams are 9; etc); b) if this test is adminstered to all
> employees that hardly makes anyone special.

I apologise for my typically cryptic prose style. I think I am trying  
to say that in essence the process encourages you to focus on what  
differentiates you from other individuals, and many people find that  
sort of solipsism rewarding. There may only be a handful of buckets,  
but the assessment process is often lengthy, and there's commonly a  
personalised detailed report.

> I think until you can find some hard examples of companies or
> organisations actually doing this it's coming across as scaremongery.
> I'm not aware in my contracting experience in three dozen + companies
> of this ever happening. The most intense psychometric scrutiny I've
> been under has only happened as an adjunct.
>

Well, I certainly wouldn't want to be scaremongering[1], so I'm sorry  
for giving that impression. It does seem to me to be an intrinsic part  
of social management - people like to reduce groups down to easy  
labels and categories, and it's justifiable to be wary of this. I  
wasn't trying to suggest that there's any crude formal process that  
involves not hiring type N or, pay reducing type B, and I'm probably  
guilty of over-egging the case by conveying that impression. However,  
I think there's a lot of potential for this sort of pigeon-holed  
labelling approach to broadly influence thought and process, and this  
seems such a natural fit for the 'dumbing-down' or shorthanding of  
fairly subtle concepts.

-- 
Regards,
Colin M. Strickland

[1] If I was wanting to do that, I'd probably point out that  
scientologists commonly use 'personality testing' as an introductory  
gambit for recruiting :-) Yes, I realise this is a ridiculous basis  
for argument, they also use 'books' and 'therapy'. It's got a smiley.  
Relax. Now give me all your money...

From cms at beatworm.co.uk  Thu Dec 18 15:04:35 2008
From: cms at beatworm.co.uk (Colin M. Strickland)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:04:35 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] What Belbin personality type are you?
In-Reply-To: <494A5CB9.9000608@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4949B8FC.2080409@cosmicperl.com>	<16afc9550812180231t6d66f147g3d41bc3f071397e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<95CD0A4C-2F7E-4E8C-968A-C0CA84867080@beatworm.co.uk>
	<494A5CB9.9000608@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <150B8101-7A18-423D-878E-2865B2FE10C4@beatworm.co.uk>


On 18 Dec 2008, at 14:22, Lyle wrote:

> The Belbin types were designed specifically to evaluate working  
> groups.
> Useless for HR as people always answered the questions for what they
> thought you want to hear, rather than how they actually prefer to  
> work.

I've not had any direct experience of formal testing for team  
relationships, so I would have to reserve judgement on this category.  
My nature is to be suspicious of this kind of thing, and I don't  
really see how it's helpful for this mailing list / user group /  
cult / whatever. Whilst I would decline from submitting personal  
results, I'm not trying to raise a boycott on anyone using it, finding  
it interesting, or even helpful. I remain very sceptical.

-- 
Regards,
Colin M. Strickland.

From something at amias.org.uk  Thu Dec 18 15:24:43 2008
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:24:43 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] What Belbin personality type are you?
In-Reply-To: <494A5CB9.9000608@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4949B8FC.2080409@cosmicperl.com>
	<16afc9550812180231t6d66f147g3d41bc3f071397e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<95CD0A4C-2F7E-4E8C-968A-C0CA84867080@beatworm.co.uk>
	<494A5CB9.9000608@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <1229613883.7820.19.camel@localhost>

On Thu, 2008-12-18 at 14:22 +0000, Lyle wrote:
> 
> If you haven't done this test then it only takes 5 mins and would be 
> really useful to know what we have here...

seems i am RI primary and Pl secondary , all the others where
significantly lower but i scored in each field if that helps
me appear to be less of psychopath.

well that was fun i am bored now , whats next ;-)

Toodle-pip
Amias


From alex.francis at gmail.com  Thu Dec 18 17:02:33 2008
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:02:33 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] What Belbin personality type are you?
In-Reply-To: <95CD0A4C-2F7E-4E8C-968A-C0CA84867080@beatworm.co.uk>
References: <4949B8FC.2080409@cosmicperl.com>
	<16afc9550812180231t6d66f147g3d41bc3f071397e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<95CD0A4C-2F7E-4E8C-968A-C0CA84867080@beatworm.co.uk>
Message-ID: <16afc9550812180902u5c45e784qe94f506b083211c3@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:43 AM, Colin M. Strickland
<cms at beatworm.co.uk> wrote:
>
> On 18 Dec 2008, at 10:31, Alex Francis wrote:
>
>> then some magic
>> software wrote 20 pages about each of us. Spookily accurate stuff,
>> too.
>
> Do you not think that this sort of thing is a bit prone to Horoscope
> techniques? e.g. It's generalised, but tending to flattery. You have a
> strong sense of personal values, which is nice, but I find it hard to
> think of anyone failing to identify with that. What values ? Of
> course, they're 'personal', you're unique and special.
>

I left out the nasty things it said about me ;-) And.. lots of detail,
which explained a bit more what they meant by each of those bullet
points.

Yes, and I was skeptical at first, but then we tried a few things
making use of the information. Presenting stuff to a group in
different ways according to who we were trying to communicate with and
their preferences. It worked well - and I found it really hard work.

> None of this is supposed to specifically apply to Mr. Alex Francis of
> course, who I don't really know, but assume to be an excellent fellow.
>

lol. I did meet you in a pub once many years ago.

Alex

From alex.francis at gmail.com  Thu Dec 18 17:07:58 2008
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:07:58 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] What Belbin personality type are you?
In-Reply-To: <1229613883.7820.19.camel@localhost>
References: <4949B8FC.2080409@cosmicperl.com>
	<16afc9550812180231t6d66f147g3d41bc3f071397e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<95CD0A4C-2F7E-4E8C-968A-C0CA84867080@beatworm.co.uk>
	<494A5CB9.9000608@cosmicperl.com> <1229613883.7820.19.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <16afc9550812180907t7ed5da4cua2fd88b414401de8@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 3:24 PM, Amias Channer <something at amias.org.uk> wrote:
>
> well that was fun i am bored now , whats next ;-)
>

What kind of symbol table entry are you and why?
Alex

From alex.francis at gmail.com  Thu Dec 18 17:13:54 2008
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:13:54 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] What Belbin personality type are you?
In-Reply-To: <1AB331B4-3168-4E70-8204-07B758914910@beatworm.co.uk>
References: <4949B8FC.2080409@cosmicperl.com>
	<16afc9550812180231t6d66f147g3d41bc3f071397e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<95CD0A4C-2F7E-4E8C-968A-C0CA84867080@beatworm.co.uk>
	<c37577dd0812180507h3982a577y23e195e6c4074aeb@mail.gmail.com>
	<1AB331B4-3168-4E70-8204-07B758914910@beatworm.co.uk>
Message-ID: <16afc9550812180913k42eb2fd1ic6f1b9275644633@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 2:05 PM, Colin M. Strickland <cms at beatworm.co.uk> wrote:
...
> It opens the door to a systemic labelling of people, which is
> something I'm discouraged by, especially within a corporate structure,

Not sure if it's a helpful observation or not, but the guy running the
session I'm referring to was careful to specify this was not intended
to pigeon-hole. It was presented as a tool to use to communicate
better with people who have different preferences to you.

> where it may be informing hidden decisions that could affect you quite
> significantly.

Ah, well, we'll have to wait and see about that one ;-)

> The usual joke to insert at this point from fans of these systems is
> to suggest that I would think that about the whole affair because I'm
> $PERSONALITY_TYPE.

Which has been the topic of conversation at our last 3 lunch meetings.
"You can spare me the details, I'm a yellow" vs. "I'm a blue, you need
to give me all the data and let me draw my own conclusion about that."

[Provocative subject apparently!]

Alex

From alex.francis at gmail.com  Thu Dec 18 17:43:31 2008
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:43:31 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] What Belbin personality type are you?
In-Reply-To: <494A5CB9.9000608@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4949B8FC.2080409@cosmicperl.com>
	<16afc9550812180231t6d66f147g3d41bc3f071397e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<95CD0A4C-2F7E-4E8C-968A-C0CA84867080@beatworm.co.uk>
	<494A5CB9.9000608@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550812180943y4296a947hb7bfb0ad9c099256@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 2:22 PM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
> If you haven't done this test then it only takes 5 mins and would be
> really useful to know what we have here...
>

It said: Implementer, then Coordinator. I reckon the other way round.

Alex

From paulm at paulm.com  Thu Dec 18 17:54:53 2008
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:54:53 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] What Belbin personality type are you?
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550812180907t7ed5da4cua2fd88b414401de8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4949B8FC.2080409@cosmicperl.com>
	<16afc9550812180231t6d66f147g3d41bc3f071397e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<95CD0A4C-2F7E-4E8C-968A-C0CA84867080@beatworm.co.uk>
	<494A5CB9.9000608@cosmicperl.com> <1229613883.7820.19.camel@localhost>
	<16afc9550812180907t7ed5da4cua2fd88b414401de8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0812180954q6848239es952428125e0272a5@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 5:07 PM, Alex Francis <alex.francis at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 3:24 PM, Amias Channer <something at amias.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>> well that was fun i am bored now , whats next ;-)
>>
>
> What kind of symbol table entry are you and why?

Haha brilliant!

You are a GLOB: confusing, misunderstood, subtle, but access to almost
everything.

You are a HASH: initially intriguing, you are versatile, flexible and
soon people wonder how they got along without you all that time.

etc

> Alex
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Thu Dec 18 18:17:43 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:17:43 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] What Belbin personality type are you?
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550812180943y4296a947hb7bfb0ad9c099256@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4949B8FC.2080409@cosmicperl.com>	<16afc9550812180231t6d66f147g3d41bc3f071397e2@mail.gmail.com>	<95CD0A4C-2F7E-4E8C-968A-C0CA84867080@beatworm.co.uk>	<494A5CB9.9000608@cosmicperl.com>
	<16afc9550812180943y4296a947hb7bfb0ad9c099256@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <494A93C7.20502@cosmicperl.com>

Alex Francis wrote:
> It said: Implementer, then Coordinator. I reckon the other way round.

Amias Channer wrote:
> seems i am RI primary and Pl secondary 

Peter Haworth wrote:
> >From memory, I'm primarily a Monitor Evaluator and secondarily a
> Completer Finisher.

Brill. This is shaping up nicely. So we are missing a shaper and a team 
worker to motivate us and keep us working together...


Lyle


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Thu Dec 18 19:20:18 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 19:20:18 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Creating a Bundle::
Message-ID: <494AA272.7070300@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  I need to create a bundle, but I'm not exactly sure how it's done... 
Or exactly how bundles work... Is it just a list of prereqs like Task::?


Lyle


From david at cantrell.org.uk  Sat Dec 20 23:16:07 2008
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 23:16:07 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Creating a Bundle::
In-Reply-To: <494AA272.7070300@cosmicperl.com>
References: <494AA272.7070300@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <20081220231607.GA11076@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 07:20:18PM +0000, Lyle wrote:

>   I need to create a bundle, but I'm not exactly sure how it's done... 
> Or exactly how bundles work... Is it just a list of prereqs like Task::?

http://search.cpan.org/~andk/CPAN-1.9301/lib/CPAN.pm#Bundles

-- 
David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic

From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Sun Dec 21 14:30:43 2008
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 14:30:43 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Star Wars Family Guy episode
Message-ID: <PGM.20081221143043.11763.9532@edison.ioppublishing.com>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
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Url: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20081221/b5571abd/attachment.pl 

From something at amias.org.uk  Mon Dec 22 11:01:25 2008
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:01:25 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Is this still true ?
Message-ID: <1229943685.7791.6.camel@localhost>

Hello Perlmongers ,

I'm not sure its as easy now as it was back then
http://www.xkcd.com/519/

Toodle-pip
Amias


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Wed Dec 24 00:20:21 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 00:20:21 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Is this still true ?
In-Reply-To: <1229943685.7791.6.camel@localhost>
References: <1229943685.7791.6.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <49518045.5050903@cosmicperl.com>

Amias Channer wrote:
> Hello Perlmongers ,
>
> I'm not sure its as easy now as it was back then
> http://www.xkcd.com/519/
>   

I'd have to agree, but I'll definitely be using this cartoon when I take 
the free course to the schools.


Lyle

P.S. Finally working on my first Perl Blog. Will announce when I've got 
it ready.


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Thu Dec 25 00:00:05 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 00:00:05 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Merry Christmas to all
Message-ID: <4952CD05.1090508@cosmicperl.com>

$fullmessage = "$subject and a happy new year to!";
print $fullmessage;


Lyle


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Sat Dec 27 23:09:07 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 23:09:07 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Group blog software ready, and first blog started :)
Message-ID: <4956B593.2080604@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  I've got movable type installed and working, I've started my blog at:-
http://perl.bristolbath.org/blog/lyle/

Let me know on or off list if you want a blog and I'll create it and 
give you a login.

I thought the blog aggregator could go at:-
http://perl.bristolbath.org/blog/ or http://perl.bristolbath.org/blogs/
Incorporating all our blogs whether they are on the B&BPM server or not.


Lyle


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Mon Dec 29 11:37:44 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:37:44 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Bristol 10k coming up...
Message-ID: <4958B688.1050903@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  Bristol 10k is coming up in May:-
http://www.bristolhalfmarathon.com/bristol10k/
I've been wondering if it would be acceptable to get sponsorship that 
goes towards TPF rather than a charity?


Lyle