From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Mon Jun  2 20:47:34 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:47:34 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] OT: Open source video editing
Message-ID: <48444E56.5050101@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  Anyone here familiar with good open source video editing software?


Lyle


From mjr at phonecoop.coop  Wed Jun  4 14:07:36 2008
From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray)
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 14:07:36 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] OT: Open source video editing
In-Reply-To: <48444E56.5050101@cosmicperl.com>
References: <48444E56.5050101@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <48469398.MUNziRBuqhUqV3yM%mjr@phonecoop.coop>

Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
>   Anyone here familiar with good open source video editing software?

Not I, but wouldn't it be more on-topic on a LUG mailing list?
-- 
MJ Ray (slef)
Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small
worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/
(Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237

From gseviour at btinternet.com  Wed Jun  4 17:11:12 2008
From: gseviour at btinternet.com (GARY SEVIOUR)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:11:12 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] OT: Open source video editing
In-Reply-To: <48444E56.5050101@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <5262.10040.qm@web86609.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

I dont work with video at all myself but Cinelerra looks like the video production equivalent of audacity (which I intend to make use of eventually) in terms of complexity, flexibility and suitability for professional use. Kino looks like it would be better for more casual use.
 
Yeh OT, but I bet you can involve Perl somewhere with Cinellerra if you want to (just to make life maximally confusing ).

Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote: Hi All,
  Anyone here familiar with good open source video editing software?


Lyle

_______________________________________________
BristolBathPM mailing list
BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm


       
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From gseviour at btinternet.com  Wed Jun  4 17:20:13 2008
From: gseviour at btinternet.com (GARY SEVIOUR)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:20:13 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] OT: Open source video editing
In-Reply-To: <5262.10040.qm@web86609.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <918940.75237.qm@web86608.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

sorry, replace the word "audacity" with ardour.

GARY SEVIOUR <gseviour at btinternet.com> wrote: I dont work with video at all myself but Cinelerra looks like the video production equivalent of audacity (which I intend to make use of eventually) in terms of complexity, flexibility and suitability for professional use. Kino looks like it would be better for more casual use.
 
Yeh OT, but I bet you can involve Perl somewhere with Cinellerra if you want to (just to make life maximally confusing ).

Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote: Hi All,
  Anyone here familiar with good open source video editing software?


Lyle

_______________________________________________
BristolBathPM mailing list
BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm

           

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 A Smarter Email._______________________________________________
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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Thu Jun  5 03:25:15 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 03:25:15 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] OT: Open source video editing
In-Reply-To: <5262.10040.qm@web86609.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <5262.10040.qm@web86609.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48474E8B.4070001@cosmicperl.com>

GARY SEVIOUR wrote:
> I dont work with video at all myself but Cinelerra looks like the 
> video production equivalent of audacity (which I intend to make use of 
> eventually) in terms of complexity, flexibility and suitability for 
> professional use. Kino looks like it would be better for more casual use.
>  
> Yeh OT, but I bet you can involve Perl somewhere with Cinellerra if 
> you want to (just to make life maximally confusing ).

Cheers Gary, I'm sure I'll find a use for Perl, automatically changing 
file formats or something... batch jobs...


Lyle


From nigel at turbo10.com  Thu Jun  5 08:08:33 2008
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 08:08:33 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Bath Social Meet
Message-ID: <50fec4060806050008s7ff716abn746b1785e4157c50@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

     Following on from our successful first meeting in Bristol I think it
would be great if we could meet again in Bath this month.

     How does the last Tuesday of the month sound?

what:    BristolBath Perl Mongers Meeting
when:   7pm Tue 24th of June
where:  Opa Bar (a relaxed bar by the Avon river - not too far from the
train station)
           14 North Parade
           Bath BA2 4AJ
           http://www.opabath.com
how:    From Bath Spa Station follow Manvers St -> Pierrpont St then turn
right at the intersection with North Parade.
           Opa looks over the river and is below street level - look out for
the sign to the right of the bridge.

      If you want to give a 5 minute lightning talk at the start of the
meeting you're welcome too --- but this is totally optional. Lightning talks
don't even have to be about Perl.

      Looking forward to drinking some beers and good conversation ...

Nige

[1] here is map
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=11552851791986583540,51.379970,-2.355850&q=ba24aj&ie=UTF8&ll=51.380982,-2.355752&spn=0.006669,0.014591&z=16&iwloc=addr
[2] here is the site of the bar: http://www.opabath.com
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From alex at alexfrancis.org.uk  Thu Jun  5 11:18:31 2008
From: alex at alexfrancis.org.uk (Alex Francis)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:18:31 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Bath Social Meet
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060806050008s7ff716abn746b1785e4157c50@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060806050008s7ff716abn746b1785e4157c50@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550806050318q47943604y9fa432065e7b8f6d@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Nigel Hamilton <nigel at turbo10.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
>      Following on from our successful first meeting in Bristol I think it
> would be great if we could meet again in Bath this month.
>
>      How does the last Tuesday of the month sound?
>
> what:    BristolBath Perl Mongers Meeting
> when:   7pm Tue 24th of June
> where:  Opa Bar (a relaxed bar by the Avon river - not too far from the
> train station)

Count me in.
Alex

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Thu Jun  5 13:02:14 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:02:14 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Bath Social Meet
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060806050008s7ff716abn746b1785e4157c50@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060806050008s7ff716abn746b1785e4157c50@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4847D5C6.3060408@cosmicperl.com>

Nigel Hamilton wrote:
> Hi All,
>
>      Following on from our successful first meeting in Bristol I think 
> it would be great if we could meet again in Bath this month.

Thanks for organising this Nige, I've been so busy recently.


Lyle

From nigel at turbo10.com  Thu Jun  5 13:13:47 2008
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:13:47 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Bath Social Meet
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550806050318q47943604y9fa432065e7b8f6d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060806050008s7ff716abn746b1785e4157c50@mail.gmail.com>
	<16afc9550806050318q47943604y9fa432065e7b8f6d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50fec4060806050513pec3a8d5n30f67f3199b460ec@mail.gmail.com>

HI Alex,

     Great. I just spoke to the webmistress at Bath Uni Computer Science
Dept and she is posting a notice on their departmental website. I've also
posted notices on the Bath and Bristol gumtrees and use.perl.org as well. I
wonder if there is a place to post on PerlMonks?

     If you know of anywhere/anyone we should spread the word to then please
let me know? - feel free to go ahead to post the details to whatever local
forums you see fit.

Nige

p.s. I'm a newbie to Bath --- so local Bathonians please pass on the
invitation to local perl users etc.


2008/6/5 Alex Francis <alex at alexfrancis.org.uk>:

> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Nigel Hamilton <nigel at turbo10.com> wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> >      Following on from our successful first meeting in Bristol I think it
> > would be great if we could meet again in Bath this month.
> >
> >      How does the last Tuesday of the month sound?
> >
> > what:    BristolBath Perl Mongers Meeting
> > when:   7pm Tue 24th of June
> > where:  Opa Bar (a relaxed bar by the Avon river - not too far from the
> > train station)
>
> Count me in.
> Alex
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>
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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Thu Jun  5 13:23:53 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:23:53 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Bath Social Meet
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060806050513pec3a8d5n30f67f3199b460ec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060806050008s7ff716abn746b1785e4157c50@mail.gmail.com>	<16afc9550806050318q47943604y9fa432065e7b8f6d@mail.gmail.com>
	<50fec4060806050513pec3a8d5n30f67f3199b460ec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4847DAD9.4000705@cosmicperl.com>

Nigel Hamilton wrote:
> HI Alex,
>
>      Great. I just spoke to the webmistress at Bath Uni Computer 
> Science Dept and she is posting a notice on their departmental website.

That's brilliant!

> I've also posted notices on the Bath and Bristol gumtrees and 
> use.perl.org <http://use.perl.org> as well. I wonder if there is a 
> place to post on PerlMonks?

They've got a news section that I've posted to before...

>
>      If you know of anywhere/anyone we should spread the word to then 
> please let me know? - feel free to go ahead to post the details to 
> whatever local forums you see fit.

There is the B&B LUG:-
http://www.bristol.lug.org.uk/

_ probably have a lot of Bath people as well:-
http://www.under-score.org.uk/

Also you can contact the Perl Review and ask them to put it on the Perl 
community calendar:-
http://www.theperlreview.com/community_calendar


Lyle


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Thu Jun  5 13:23:59 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:23:59 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Bath Social Meet
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060806050008s7ff716abn746b1785e4157c50@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060806050008s7ff716abn746b1785e4157c50@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4847DADF.4070700@cosmicperl.com>

Nigel Hamilton wrote:
>       If you want to give a 5 minute lightning talk at the start of 
> the meeting you're welcome too --- but this is totally optional. 
> Lightning talks don't even have to be about Perl.  

I'll put together a quick talk on some of the big mistakes made/ lessons 
I've learnt along the way. Should we say meet at 7, talks start at 7:30 
to give people a chance to arrive?
Which begs the next question... Who has the nicest Laptop? I'd rather 
just bring a USB stick than us all turn up with Laptops. Maybe one of 
the local Bath people have a Laptop with a nice big screen?

Suggestions on presentation format? Plain old HTML?  :-\

Hoping a few of you will give this a go. I know from the Bristol meet I 
left with an awful lot of questions in my head about the details of what 
people were doing with Perl and how they were doing it.


Lyle


From nigel at turbo10.com  Thu Jun  5 14:30:36 2008
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:30:36 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Bath Social Meet
In-Reply-To: <4847DADF.4070700@cosmicperl.com>
References: <50fec4060806050008s7ff716abn746b1785e4157c50@mail.gmail.com>
	<4847DADF.4070700@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <50fec4060806050630t71d12ee0sc256ea4da55b9dd0@mail.gmail.com>

HI Lyle,

>
> I'll put together a quick talk on some of the big mistakes made/ lessons
> I've learnt along the way. Should we say meet at 7, talks start at 7:30
> to give people a chance to arrive?


Sounds like a good idea.


>
> Which begs the next question... Who has the nicest Laptop? I'd rather
> just bring a USB stick than us all turn up with Laptops. Maybe one of
> the local Bath people have a Laptop with a nice big screen?
>

I'll try and bring my wife's mac along - I only have a tiny eeepc.


>
> Suggestions on presentation format? Plain old HTML?  :-\
>

PDF/OpenOffice/PowerPoint and HTML is fine too. Although I've always found
HTML presentations a bit finicky (e.g., the Next Slide-> link can be tricky
to click). Some lightning talks are also best without any slides[1].


>
> Hoping a few of you will give this a go. I know from the Bristol meet I
> left with an awful lot of questions in my head about the details of what
> people were doing with Perl and how they were doing it.
>
>
Me too. The last meeting was a real cocktail of ideas: massive apache
children sucking RAM quicker than the Hadron Collider blackhole burping up
Belgium -  while all the stars of the IMDB are updating their own profiles.
You need a physics database and lots of people cooperating to try and making
sense of it! I'm sure the regulars at the Opa Bar in Bath will want to come
and join us if they hear us talking about improving agility and having
scrums first thing in the morning [2]  ... haha ... it's all good fun! ;-)


Nige

[1] http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2004/07/30/lightningtalk.html
[2] we covered all this and lots more at the first meeting
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From alex at alexfrancis.org.uk  Mon Jun  9 12:58:22 2008
From: alex at alexfrancis.org.uk (Alex Francis)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 12:58:22 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Controllers / MVC / dispatch in perl
Message-ID: <16afc9550806090458u6c37fb2oc9728f48322ac9d0@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all

Following on from the very comprehensive and wide-ranging discussion
based on a "web.py" for perl - a couple of options were mentioned that
deal with the controller aspect of MVC as in dispatching a request to
the right place (action / command and subsequent view).

Can anyone share their preferences for this part of building a web
app? What would you choose for a new project now?

In the web.py thread i heard mention of
* Catalyst
* Maypole
* MasonX::MiniMVC

and some other things which also no doubt cover this.

One thing that kind of clicked in my head when I played with django
was the include() function in URLconfs, explained here:

http://www.djangobook.com/en/1.0/chapter08/#s-including-other-urlconfs

It's very like servlet dispatching in java, but with each "servlet"
defining how its own URLs behave within its allotted URL path prefix.

Any thoughts anyone?

Alex

From rob at avbrief.com  Mon Jun  9 13:49:56 2008
From: rob at avbrief.com (Rob Edwards)
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:49:56 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Controllers / MVC / dispatch in perl
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550806090458u6c37fb2oc9728f48322ac9d0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <16afc9550806090458u6c37fb2oc9728f48322ac9d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ded1116d0806090549w2a61122ft96f79dc54d933684@mail.gmail.com>

I use maypole, primarily because catalyst seems like too much hard work..

It allows me to spend a minimal amount of time dealing with boring
stuff like HTML and SQL thanks to CDBI and some nice automagical
template toolkit templates.

If what your doing involves a lot of CRUD I can highly recommend it, a
great time saving tool.

Rob

From mjr at phonecoop.coop  Tue Jun 10 13:36:10 2008
From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 13:36:10 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Controllers / MVC / dispatch in perl
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550806090458u6c37fb2oc9728f48322ac9d0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <16afc9550806090458u6c37fb2oc9728f48322ac9d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <484e753a.Ync9cMe/Yo+YQYmU%mjr@phonecoop.coop>

"Alex Francis" <alex at alexfrancis.org.uk> wrote:
> Following on from the very comprehensive and wide-ranging discussion
> based on a "web.py" for perl - a couple of options were mentioned that
> deal with the controller aspect of MVC as in dispatching a request to
> the right place (action / command and subsequent view).
>
> Can anyone share their preferences for this part of building a web
> app? What would you choose for a new project now? [...]

I'm currently leaning towards REST::Application but I've still not
found time to work on the (unpaid) project I have it in mind for.

Thanks for continuing this discussion,
-- 
MJ Ray (slef)
Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small
worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/
(Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237

From paulm at paulm.com  Tue Jun 10 22:42:02 2008
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:42:02 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Controllers / MVC / dispatch in perl
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550806090458u6c37fb2oc9728f48322ac9d0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <16afc9550806090458u6c37fb2oc9728f48322ac9d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0806101442w4096fe87m53c5988143d327a2@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 12:58 PM, Alex Francis <alex at alexfrancis.org.uk> wrote:
> Hi all
>
> Following on from the very comprehensive and wide-ranging discussion
> based on a "web.py" for perl - a couple of options were mentioned that
> deal with the controller aspect of MVC as in dispatching a request to
> the right place (action / command and subsequent view).
>
> Can anyone share their preferences for this part of building a web
> app? What would you choose for a new project now?
>
> In the web.py thread i heard mention of
> * Catalyst
> * Maypole
> * MasonX::MiniMVC
>
> and some other things which also no doubt cover this.
>
> One thing that kind of clicked in my head when I played with django
> was the include() function in URLconfs, explained here:
>
> http://www.djangobook.com/en/1.0/chapter08/#s-including-other-urlconfs
>
> It's very like servlet dispatching in java, but with each "servlet"
> defining how its own URLs behave within its allotted URL path prefix.

Here's how Catalyst deals with this,
http://search.cpan.org/~zarquon/Catalyst-Manual-5.7012/lib/Catalyst/Manual/Intro.pod#URL_Path_Handling

If I were choosing a Perl solution I'd go with Catalyst.

P

>
> Any thoughts anyone?
>
> Alex
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Jun 13 12:59:22 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 12:59:22 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN - as I understand it
Message-ID: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>

I've been working on this post for a while, but only just had chance to 
finish my initial test. I'm working toward a solution which I hope will 
have a good impact for Perl... To finish planning it out and prove that 
it can work I need to get a few things straight about CPAN.


I'm sure I've missed important things out, or even some of the following 
information is wrong. If you'd be kind enough to help me fill in the 
blanks it'd be much appreciated. Bits I'm really not sure on are 
generally marked with ??


CPAN is an archive of Perl Modules that fellow programmers have made 
available for us to use. It's mirrored across many servers around the globe.
Any Perl programmer can apply for a CPAN account and can upload their 
modules to share.
Modules are archived usually in a tar.gz or zip, and contain a makefile, 
the .pm and hopefully some tests and documentation.


CPAN testers or CPANTS for short are people who test uploaded modules, 
trying to install them on their copy of Perl and upload a build report 
for others to see. (what is there motivation? Are a lot of them working 
for different distros?)


CPAN.pm is a module used to install modules from CPAN, downloading their 
archive and building. Any required XS C libraries are compiled at this 
stage, generally using gcc and make. Sometimes C libraries need to be 
downloaded and installed separately. There is also the command line 
'cpan' shell which utilizes this module.


PPM is a system for distributing pre-compiled Perl modules, where any XS 
C libraries have already been compiled and are a part of the archive. 
PPM packages can be made for any platform (Linux, Windows, etc) but are 
predominantly used for Windows with the main repository being 
ActiveStates which is created using an auto build process. (I've yet to 
find a Linux repository) - actually I've since stumbled across 
http://ppm.activestate.com/PPMPackages/zips/ showing that ActiveState do 
Linux ppm builds, although not as frequently.



Installing CPAN modules:-

Linux users with root access can install CPAN modules either:-

Packages such as RPM's from their Linux distro, this is usually only 
available for popular or difficult to install Perl modules. (I ended up 
using this recently when CPAN.pm failed to install DBD::mysql on CentOS 5)
'perl -mCPAN -e shell;' or 'cpan'.
Downloading, archives and building individually (an absolute nightmare 
when there are a lot of dependencies, imagine trying to do this for Jifty!)
using ppm

Linux users with shell access can install CPAN modules either:-

'perl -mCPAN -e shell;' or 'cpan' installing to a local directory, 
although they'll need to amend all their Perl scripts to include this 
folder, or there is an environment variable they can set?? Would the 
environment variable work for CGI scripts?? Their account may not have 
access to gcc and make??
Downloading, archives and building individually. Same issues as above??
using ppm???

Linux users with only FTP accounts (i.e. shared hosting environment)

Downloading modules manually, problems:-
Autoloader modules - either uncomments 'use Autoloader;' in each module 
or build on a similar system and copy over the /auto/ folder.
XS modules - I've heard that if you build the module on a similar 
system, you can just upload the Perl modules and c libraries, with a bit 
of tweeking it'll work?? Can someone verify this??  -- I've done a 
simple Windows based test, details at bottom of this post.
Need to update all Perl scripts to include local module directory "use 
lib 'cpanlib';"


Windows users with root access can install CPAN modules either:-

'cpan' shell as long as they have a good c compiler and make available. 
Although this can be a painful experience.
Downloading, archives and building individually, again they need make 
and c compiler.
using ppm

Windows users with shell access can install CPAN modules either:-

'cpan' shell as long as they have a good c compiler and make available????
Downloading, archives and building individually, again they need make 
and c compiler????
using ppm????

Windows users with only FTP accounts (i.e. shared hosting environment)

Same issues as Linux FTP users.




Test: Installing an XS pm on Windows without ppm or cpan, into a 
separate folder (i.e. outside c:\perl)


I say not using ppm, but I'm going to cheat a little and use the ppm zip 
file for my example module clone.pm. I'm assuming that building the ppm 
.zip file does most of the hard work and the ppm install command line 
utility isn't much more than a simple installer.


Let's start by making a test script and installing clone normally 
through ppm to show that the module works. (yes I know I should use 
clones .t files)

clonetest.pl

#!/perl/bin/perl
use Test::More 'no_plan';
use_ok( 'clone' );


test that it fails without clone installed.

perl clonetest.pl

C:\clonetest>perl clonetest.pl
not ok 1 - use clone;
#   Failed test 'use clone;'
#   at clonetest.pl line 3.
#     Tried to use 'clone'.
#     Error:  Can't locate clone.pm in @INC (@INC contains: 
C:/Perl/site/lib C:/
Perl/lib .) at (eval 2) line 2.
# BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at (eval 2) line 2.
1..1
# Looks like you failed 1 test of 1.


Good. Now check that it wont pass if I simply copy over the clone.pm file.

C:\clonetest>perl clonetest.pl
not ok 1 - use clone;
#   Failed test 'use clone;'
#   at clonetest.pl line 3.
#     Tried to use 'clone'.
#     Error:  Can't locate loadable object for module Clone in @INC 
(@INC contai
ns: C:/Perl/site/lib C:/Perl/lib .) at (eval 2) line 2
# Compilation failed in require at (eval 2) line 2.
# BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at (eval 2) line 2.
1..1
# Looks like you failed 1 test of 1.

Ok, errors as expected. Now lets delete the copied over clone.pm file 
and install clone with ppm to show that it works.

ppm install clone

C:\clonetest>perl clonetest.pl
ok 1 - use clone;
1..1

Ok, works as expected. Now remove clone by ppm.

ppm remove clone


Right we are ready to do the test. When I installed by ppm I got a 
little report:-

Clone
recursively copy Perl datatypes
    Version:    0.28
    Author: Ray Finch (rdf at cpan.org)
    CPAN:   http://search.cpan.org/dist/Clone-0.28/

Installed files:
    C:/Perl/html/site/lib/Clone.html
    C:/Perl/site/lib/Clone.pm
    C:/Perl/site/lib/auto/Clone/.packlist
    C:/Perl/site/lib/auto/Clone/Clone.bs
    C:/Perl/site/lib/auto/Clone/Clone.dll
    C:/Perl/site/lib/auto/Clone/Clone.exp
    C:/Perl/site/lib/auto/Clone/Clone.lib
    C:/Perl/site/lib/auto/Clone/autosplit.ix
   

So I know that with these files in these folders clone will work. Lets 
grab the clone zip file from ActiveState:-
http://ppm.activestate.com/PPMPackages/zips/8xx-builds-only/Windows/Clone-0.28.zip

Looks like it's got everything I need apart from .packlist... I'll see 
if I can get by without it.

Extracting the files to:-

    C:/clonetest/Clone.pm
#    C:/clonetest/auto/Clone/.packlist
    C:/clonetest/auto/Clone/Clone.bs
    C:/clonetest/auto/Clone/Clone.dll
    C:/clonetest/auto/Clone/Clone.exp
    C:/clonetest/auto/Clone/Clone.lib
    C:/clonetest/auto/Clone/autosplit.ix

There were a couple of .exists files that I've ignored. I also skipped 
the .html file.

The moment of truth..

C:\clonetest>perl clonetest.pl
ok 1 - use clone;
1..1

Brilliant. So it appears you can install XS Perl modules without ppm or 
cpan (although borrowing from ppm).

To verify this properly I need to test an upload to a live Windows 
shared hosting account. All my hosting servers are Linux. Does anyone 
have a shared hosting Windows account that they wouldn't mind me using?



Lyle


From robingarthedwards at googlemail.com  Fri Jun 13 13:36:19 2008
From: robingarthedwards at googlemail.com (Rob Edwards)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:36:19 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN - as I understand it
In-Reply-To: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <ded1116d0806130536x1a312bdch65e497c7d2c41ee2@mail.gmail.com>

Who uses shared hosting for doing real work these days?

Why would you be using a machine without CPAN or a package manager?

If all your hosting servers are linux use yum/apt if that fails use
CPAN all though you should really be packaging all software that goes
on production servers.

Sorry but I think your coming up with problems that barely exist.

Rob

From david at cantrell.org.uk  Fri Jun 13 13:52:02 2008
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:52:02 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN - as I understand it
In-Reply-To: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <20080613125201.GA23679@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 12:59:22PM +0100, Lyle wrote:
> 
> I'm sure I've missed important things out, or even some of the following 
> information is wrong. If you'd be kind enough to help me fill in the 
> blanks it'd be much appreciated. Bits I'm really not sure on are 
> generally marked with ??
>
> ...
> 
> CPAN testers or CPANTS for short

CPANTS is something else entirely:
  http://cpants.perl.org/
  http://cpantesters.perl.org/

Unfortunately the T in CPANTS stands for Testing, which is terribly
confusing, but it is static tests without actually running any of a
module's code.

>                                  are people who test uploaded modules, 
> trying to install them on their copy of Perl and upload a build report 
> for others to see. (what is there motivation? Are a lot of them working 
> for different distros?)

My motivation is that it's a really easy way to give back to the
community.

> CPAN.pm is a module used to install modules from CPAN, downloading their 
> archive and building. Any required XS C libraries are compiled at this 
> stage, generally using gcc and make.

Make, yes.  gcc, no.  The build tools (such as ExtUtils::MakeMaker) will
use the same compiler as was used to build perl.  This will normally be
gcc on Linux and *BSD, but could be icc (Intel's compiler) and on other
platforms is more likely to be one supplied by the vendor.  eg on Irix
it'll be the MIPSpro compiler, and on Windows it'll normally be MS C but
could be Borland.

> 'perl -mCPAN -e shell;' or 'cpan' installing to a local directory, 
> although they'll need to amend all their Perl scripts to include this 
> folder, or there is an environment variable they can set?

PERL5LIB.  See perldoc perlrun.

And you mean -MCPAN, not -mCPAN.  The difference is that using -m
doesn't call the module's import() subroutine, and so the shell()
function won't be available.

>                                                           Would the 
> environment variable work for CGI scripts?

Of course, provided that it is actually set by the web server.

>                                            Their account may not have 
> access to gcc and make?

That's very rare.  If make and a compiler are installed, they're
normally available to everyone who is authorised to install software.

>                  I've heard that if you build the module on a similar 
> system, you can just upload the Perl modules and c libraries, with a bit 
> of tweeking it'll work? Can someone verify this?

Yes, it'll work, provided that you set any paths that need encoding into
the binaries correctly for the target system, and you build against the
right ABI.  The easiest way to ensure this is to replicate the target
environment on your own machine - build perl with all the same options
(ie the same Config.pm or perl -V), same compiler, same word length etc.

-- 
David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

I think the most difficult moment that anyone could face is seeing
their domestic servants, whether maid or drivers, run away
  -- Abdul Rahman Al-Sheikh, writing at
     http://www.arabnews.com/?article=38558

From david at cantrell.org.uk  Fri Jun 13 13:58:20 2008
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:58:20 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN - as I understand it
In-Reply-To: <ded1116d0806130536x1a312bdch65e497c7d2c41ee2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>
	<ded1116d0806130536x1a312bdch65e497c7d2c41ee2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080613125819.GB23679@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 01:36:19PM +0100, Rob Edwards wrote:

> Who uses shared hosting for doing real work these days?

Cheapskates who won't hire a full-time developer and so contract the
work out.  Technophobes who are scared of running their own server
and don't want to rely on their perl contractor to run it for them.
Individuals.  Companies where the many clueful technical staff get
over-ruled by their idiot bosses.

Guess which of those I'm most bitter about :-)

-- 
David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist

comparative and superlative explained:

<Huhn> worse, worser, worsest, worsted, wasted

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Jun 13 14:12:55 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:12:55 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN - as I understand it
In-Reply-To: <ded1116d0806130536x1a312bdch65e497c7d2c41ee2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>
	<ded1116d0806130536x1a312bdch65e497c7d2c41ee2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48527257.9090109@cosmicperl.com>

Rob Edwards wrote:
> Who uses shared hosting for doing real work these days?
>   

Just several hundred thousand ecommerce stores

> Why would you be using a machine without CPAN or a package manager?
>   

The machine will have these, but the users login will not unnecessarily 
have access to them.

> If all your hosting servers are linux use yum/apt if that fails use
> CPAN all though you should really be packaging all software that goes
> on production servers.
>   

This isn't designed to address problems I have on my servers. I have no 
problem installing Perl modules, nor does anyone else with dedicated 
hosting.

> Sorry but I think your coming up with problems that barely exist.
>   

I know from 9 years of market experience working on all manor of hosting 
environments across the globe that the problem is HUGE.


Lyle


P.S. Where were you at the last meet? Your venue vote suggested you were 
coming?


From rob at avbrief.com  Fri Jun 13 14:32:32 2008
From: rob at avbrief.com (Rob Edwards)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:32:32 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN - as I understand it
In-Reply-To: <48527257.9090109@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>
	<ded1116d0806130536x1a312bdch65e497c7d2c41ee2@mail.gmail.com>
	<48527257.9090109@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <ded1116d0806130632k23261f8fx83bfa02e63688fb6@mail.gmail.com>

>> Who uses shared hosting for doing real work these days?
> Just several hundred thousand ecommerce stores

*rolls eyes*

I have also done my shared hosting time, as have most people.

I definitely have no intention of going back to that land, where
enabling 1 apache module can quite frequently require 1 support
ticket, 14 emails, 4 telephone calls and quite possibly a few tears if
not 20 more dollars on your direct debit.

>
> P.S. Where were you at the last meet? Your venue vote suggested you were
> coming?

ah yes sorry, I had just got back from the nordic perl workshop I will
see if I can get my self to the next one, the talks sound good.

Rob

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Jun 13 14:42:34 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:42:34 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN - as I understand it
In-Reply-To: <20080613125201.GA23679@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
References: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>
	<20080613125201.GA23679@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4852794A.8030206@cosmicperl.com>

David Cantrell wrote:
> CPANTS is something else entirely:
>   http://cpants.perl.org/
>   http://cpantesters.perl.org/
>
> Unfortunately the T in CPANTS stands for Testing, which is terribly
> confusing, but it is static tests without actually running any of a
> module's code.
>   

I had a feeling they were different. Thanks for the clarification :)

> My motivation is that it's a really easy way to give back to the
> community.
>   

Good, I hoped as much. Now I'm wondering, as the CPAN testers (not 
CPANTS) are building XS modules against the C libraries, in your 
opinion, how hard would it be to get some of them to build a ppm package 
afterward?

> Make, yes.  gcc, no.  The build tools (such as ExtUtils::MakeMaker) will
> use the same compiler as was used to build perl.  This will normally be
> gcc on Linux and *BSD, but could be icc (Intel's compiler) and on other
> platforms is more likely to be one supplied by the vendor.  eg on Irix
> it'll be the MIPSpro compiler, and on Windows it'll normally be MS C but
> could be Borland.
>   

Or MinGW with Strawberry Perl :)

> PERL5LIB.  See perldoc perlrun.
>
> And you mean -MCPAN, not -mCPAN.  The difference is that using -m
> doesn't call the module's import() subroutine, and so the shell()
> function won't be available.
>   

Thanks.

>>                                            Their account may not have 
>> access to gcc and make?
>>     
>
> That's very rare.  If make and a compiler are installed, they're
> normally available to everyone who is authorised to install software.
>   

I see.

>>                  I've heard that if you build the module on a similar 
>> system, you can just upload the Perl modules and c libraries, with a bit 
>> of tweeking it'll work? Can someone verify this?
>>     
>
> Yes, it'll work, provided that you set any paths that need encoding into
> the binaries correctly for the target system, and you build against the
> right ABI.  The easiest way to ensure this is to replicate the target
> environment on your own machine - build perl with all the same options
> (ie the same Config.pm or perl -V), same compiler, same word length etc.
>   

I'm guessing that once the libraries are built it doesn't matter what 
compiler was used? I.e. you could build some modules with Borland C and 
install them on a Perl built with Visual C?



Thanks for your responses. They have been most helpful :)


Lyle

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Jun 13 14:45:34 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:45:34 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN - as I understand it
In-Reply-To: <ded1116d0806130632k23261f8fx83bfa02e63688fb6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>	<ded1116d0806130536x1a312bdch65e497c7d2c41ee2@mail.gmail.com>	<48527257.9090109@cosmicperl.com>
	<ded1116d0806130632k23261f8fx83bfa02e63688fb6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <485279FE.90102@cosmicperl.com>

Rob Edwards wrote:
>>> Who uses shared hosting for doing real work these days?
>>>       
>> Just several hundred thousand ecommerce stores
>>     
>
> *rolls eyes*
>
> I have also done my shared hosting time, as have most people.
>
> I definitely have no intention of going back to that land, where
> enabling 1 apache module can quite frequently require 1 support
> ticket, 14 emails, 4 telephone calls and quite possibly a few tears if
> not 20 more dollars on your direct debit.
>   

WoW, you actually managed to get some of them to enable an Apache 
module? It's hard enough getting them to install a Perl module! lol

>> P.S. Where were you at the last meet? Your venue vote suggested you were
>> coming?
>>     
>
> ah yes sorry, I had just got back from the nordic perl workshop I will
> see if I can get my self to the next one, the talks sound good.
>   

Good stuff. Any chance I could convince you into giving a lightening 
talk? :)


Lyle

From david at cantrell.org.uk  Fri Jun 13 15:08:31 2008
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:08:31 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN - as I understand it
In-Reply-To: <4852794A.8030206@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>
	<20080613125201.GA23679@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<4852794A.8030206@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <20080613140831.GA21026@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 02:42:34PM +0100, Lyle wrote:
> David Cantrell wrote:
> > My motivation is that it's a really easy way to give back to the
> > community.
> Good, I hoped as much. Now I'm wondering, as the CPAN testers (not 
> CPANTS) are building XS modules against the C libraries, in your 
> opinion, how hard would it be to get some of them to build a ppm package 
> afterward?

I don't really know what's involved in making a ppm, but if it can be
automated to make them build without requiring any user interaction,
then it should be possible.

Hop on over to the cpan-testers-discuss mailing list and see if anyone
there can help:
  http://lists.cpan.org/showlist.cgi?name=cpan-testers

> > Yes, it'll work, provided that you set any paths that need encoding into
> > the binaries correctly for the target system, and you build against the
> > right ABI.  The easiest way to ensure this is to replicate the target
> > environment on your own machine - build perl with all the same options
> > (ie the same Config.pm or perl -V), same compiler, same word length etc.
> I'm guessing that once the libraries are built it doesn't matter what 
> compiler was used? I.e. you could build some modules with Borland C and 
> install them on a Perl built with Visual C?

No.  In general, perl will only be able to load libraries that are
built with the same compiler and options that it is.

-- 
David Cantrell | A machine for turning tea into grumpiness

Please stop rolling your Jargon Dice and explain the problem
you are having to me in plain English, using small words.
  -- John Hardin, in the Monastery

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Jun 13 15:27:45 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:27:45 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN - as I understand it
In-Reply-To: <20080613140831.GA21026@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
References: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>	<20080613125201.GA23679@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>	<4852794A.8030206@cosmicperl.com>
	<20080613140831.GA21026@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
Message-ID: <485283E1.2070106@cosmicperl.com>

David Cantrell wrote:
> I don't really know what's involved in making a ppm, but if it can be
> automated to make them build without requiring any user interaction,
> then it should be possible.
>
> Hop on over to the cpan-testers-discuss mailing list and see if anyone
> there can help:
>   http://lists.cpan.org/showlist.cgi?name=cpan-testers
>   

Thanks for the link. I'll pop over there once I've finished the outline 
for the project.

> No.  In general, perl will only be able to load libraries that are
> built with the same compiler and options that it is.
>   

I see...


Lyle

From nigel at turbo10.com  Fri Jun 13 17:53:03 2008
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 17:53:03 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN - as I understand it
In-Reply-To: <485283E1.2070106@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>
	<20080613125201.GA23679@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<4852794A.8030206@cosmicperl.com>
	<20080613140831.GA21026@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<485283E1.2070106@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <50fec4060806130953v57041907ucfb3ced66fa10fc5@mail.gmail.com>

HI Lyle,

    Have you had a chance to look at PAR on CPAN? ... this could possibly
bundle things up for you and may simplify the problem of module dependencies
changing in the installation environment - you can assume the correct module
versions are in the environment because they're packed inside the PAR file.

Nige


2008/6/13 Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com>:

> David Cantrell wrote:
> > I don't really know what's involved in making a ppm, but if it can be
> > automated to make them build without requiring any user interaction,
> > then it should be possible.
> >
> > Hop on over to the cpan-testers-discuss mailing list and see if anyone
> > there can help:
> >   http://lists.cpan.org/showlist.cgi?name=cpan-testers
> >
>
> Thanks for the link. I'll pop over there once I've finished the outline
> for the project.
>
> > No.  In general, perl will only be able to load libraries that are
> > built with the same compiler and options that it is.
> >
>
> I see...
>
>
> Lyle
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>
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From dave at dave.org.uk  Fri Jun 13 18:17:22 2008
From: dave at dave.org.uk (Dave Cross)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 18:17:22 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN - as I understand it
In-Reply-To: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <4852ABA2.9030203@dave.org.uk>

Lyle wrote:

> Windows users with root access can install CPAN modules either:-
> 
> 'cpan' shell as long as they have a good c compiler and make available. 
> Although this can be a painful experience.
> Downloading, archives and building individually, again they need make 
> and c compiler.
> using ppm
> 
> Windows users with shell access can install CPAN modules either:-
> 
> 'cpan' shell as long as they have a good c compiler and make available????
> Downloading, archives and building individually, again they need make 
> and c compiler????
> using ppm????
> 
> Windows users with only FTP accounts (i.e. shared hosting environment)
> 
> Same issues as Linux FTP users.

Lyle,

If you're interested in using Perl on Windows (and the problems of 
installing XS-based CPAN modules) then you should really look at the 
Win32 Perl Wiki at http://win32.perl.org/ and Adam Kennedy's Strawberry 
Perl project - http://strawberryperl.com/

Cheers,

Dave...

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Jun 13 19:24:15 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 19:24:15 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN - as I understand it
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060806130953v57041907ucfb3ced66fa10fc5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>	<20080613125201.GA23679@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>	<4852794A.8030206@cosmicperl.com>	<20080613140831.GA21026@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>	<485283E1.2070106@cosmicperl.com>
	<50fec4060806130953v57041907ucfb3ced66fa10fc5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4852BB4F.9000409@cosmicperl.com>

Nigel Hamilton wrote:
> HI Lyle,
>
>     Have you had a chance to look at PAR on CPAN? ... this could 
> possibly bundle things up for you and may simplify the problem of 
> module dependencies changing in the installation environment - you can 
> assume the correct module versions are in the environment because 
> they're packed inside the PAR file.

Not yet, keep meaning to... Another TTD for this weekend (but where's 
the karma?)  :)


Lyle


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Jun 13 19:43:49 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 19:43:49 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN - as I understand it
In-Reply-To: <4852ABA2.9030203@dave.org.uk>
References: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com> <4852ABA2.9030203@dave.org.uk>
Message-ID: <4852BFE5.7080707@cosmicperl.com>

Dave Cross wrote:
> Lyle,
> If you're interested in using Perl on Windows (and the problems of 
> installing XS-based CPAN modules) then you should really look at the 
> Win32 Perl Wiki at http://win32.perl.org/ and Adam Kennedy's Strawberry 
> Perl project - http://strawberryperl.com/
>   

I have been following strawberry Perl, I think I'm lurking on the 
vanilla mailing list as well (slow moving though). I'm hoping that 
they'll keep making great progress... Although right now it's not going 
to solve the problem I'm seeing, and the project I'm working towards 
will compliment Strawberry perl as well... and all the other Perl 
flavours for that matter.


Lyle


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Jun 13 20:13:54 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 20:13:54 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Project
Message-ID: <4852C6F2.9000209@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  Here is the outline:-

http://perl.bristolbath.org/projects/cpan.html

Aim:- "Bring CPAN to the masses... and make Perl scripts easy to 
install" - or something along those lines :)

Please take the time out to read through, then hit me with all your 
criticism ;)


Lyle


From mjr at phonecoop.coop  Sat Jun 14 10:32:25 2008
From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 10:32:25 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN - as I understand it
In-Reply-To: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <48539029.Puy5UMNshT7AUj/I%mjr@phonecoop.coop>

Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote: [...]
> Linux users with root access can install CPAN modules either:-
>
> Packages such as RPM's from their Linux distro, this is usually only 
> available for popular or difficult to install Perl modules. [...]

Hardly.  It depends on your distribution.  Debian also makes building
your own Perl module packages very easy now.  I think the latest
debhelper makes a debian/rules file for a typical Perl module read
like this:-

#!/usr/bin/make -f
%:
    dh %@

but I've not tested that on enough modules to be sure.

I think I'd use packages whenever possible for deployed systems. There
are too many potential problems with dependencies, conflicts and so on
if you build it yourself.

I acknowledge the problems getting bad hosting services to install
extra perl modules, but I move away from bad hosting services as soon
as possible.  My current pool seem pretty good and also, bytemark's
virtual machines are cheap enough (just over 100 quid a year) that
it's an easy argument over a shared hosting account (usually at least
60 quid a year for a decent one AFAICT) if you're in any doubt - and
these numbers are minor relative to the cost of customising a perl
application anyway, let alone rewriting a good one to work on bad
shared hosting.

Regards,
-- 
MJ Ray (slef)
Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small
worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/
(Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237

From david at cantrell.org.uk  Mon Jun 16 13:02:54 2008
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:02:54 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN - as I understand it
In-Reply-To: <48539029.Puy5UMNshT7AUj/I%mjr@phonecoop.coop>
References: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>
	<48539029.Puy5UMNshT7AUj/I%mjr@phonecoop.coop>
Message-ID: <20080616120254.GC21023@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 10:32:25AM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:

> I acknowledge the problems getting bad hosting services to install
> extra perl modules, but I move away from bad hosting services as soon
> as possible.  My current pool seem pretty good and also, bytemark's
> virtual machines are cheap enough (just over 100 quid a year)

IIRC their cheapest is 150 a year, but that's not got much memory at
all.  I certainly wouldn't want to run an RDBMS plus mod_perl in that,
which kinda defeats the purpose of avoiding shared hosting - that you
can run whatever you want.  At an absolute minimum you want the 270 quid
version.

Incidentally, while I use bytemark myself, I also recommend hetzner.de
if you speak German.  I have one of these machines
<http://hetzner.de/rootserver_en.html> (the 59 euro version).  You get a
lot more for your money, but at the cost of being a bit more buggered if
there's hardware problems, having less responsive support staff, and
having to speak Furrin to them.

(Yes, that page is in English.  It's pretty much the only one on their
site.  And many of their staff *do* speak English, but not very well
IME.)

>                                                               that
> it's an easy argument over a shared hosting account (usually at least
> 60 quid a year for a decent one AFAICT) if you're in any doubt - and
> these numbers are minor relative to the cost of customising a perl
> application anyway, let alone rewriting a good one to work on bad
> shared hosting.

Don't forget that if you have your own machine you have extra ongoing
costs to maintain it that you don't have for shared hosting - you need a
sysadmin.  Even if the contractor who sets it all up does a perfect job,
you still need someone who gets the emails from cron, and can read and
understand them and fix stuff that breaks.

You and I both know that contracting that out to the same person who
installed the bloody thing for you in the first place makes sense.  But
good luck explaining that to the sort of low-end user who doesn't have
his own in-house IT staff.  That sort of ongoing maintenance payment on
top of renting the machine is hard for them to justify because they
can't see any immediate benefit.

-- 
David Cantrell | Cake Smuggler Extraordinaire

Feature: an incorrectly implemented bug

From mjr at phonecoop.coop  Mon Jun 16 14:41:27 2008
From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:41:27 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN - as I understand it
In-Reply-To: <20080616120254.GC21023@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
References: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>
	<48539029.Puy5UMNshT7AUj/I%mjr@phonecoop.coop>
	<20080616120254.GC21023@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
Message-ID: <48566d87.H/e/d4h8pCJ2JUO2%mjr@phonecoop.coop>

David Cantrell <david at cantrell.org.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 10:32:25AM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
> > [...]  My current pool seem pretty good and also, bytemark's
> > virtual machines are cheap enough (just over 100 quid a year)
>
> IIRC their cheapest is 150 a year, but that's not got much memory at
> all.  I certainly wouldn't want to run an RDBMS plus mod_perl in that,

Well spotted.  It's gone up recently:
http://www.bytemark.co.uk/page/Live/hosting/virtualmachine/

I wouldn't want to run mod_perl at all, but that's a different debate.

I think one of our members has been using www.contextshift.co.uk which
has a bigger spread of capacities, but I've not read their opinions
recently enough to know how good it is.

[...]
> good luck explaining that to the sort of low-end user who doesn't have
> his own in-house IT staff.  That sort of ongoing maintenance payment on
> top of renting the machine is hard for them to justify because they
> can't see any immediate benefit.

If they're very low-end, I'd say they'll probably be happy sharing
hosting with some of our other customers.  Above that, I've not had
much trouble justifying ongoing contracts but that may be because:-
1. our customers are smarter than average;
2. we bill them on a three-month moving average; and/or
3. the cooperative difference.

Do many of the other webmasters here have ongoing contracts?

Regards,
-- 
MJ Ray (slef)
Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small
worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/
(Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237

From david at cantrell.org.uk  Mon Jun 16 15:01:30 2008
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:01:30 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN - as I understand it
In-Reply-To: <48566d87.H/e/d4h8pCJ2JUO2%mjr@phonecoop.coop>
References: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>
	<48539029.Puy5UMNshT7AUj/I%mjr@phonecoop.coop>
	<20080616120254.GC21023@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<48566d87.H/e/d4h8pCJ2JUO2%mjr@phonecoop.coop>
Message-ID: <20080616140130.GF21023@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 02:41:27PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
> David Cantrell <david at cantrell.org.uk> wrote:
> > IIRC their cheapest is 150 a year, but that's not got much memory at
> > all.  I certainly wouldn't want to run an RDBMS plus mod_perl in that,
> Well spotted.  It's gone up recently.
> I wouldn't want to run mod_perl at all, but that's a different debate.

Nor would I in general :-)

> I think one of our members has been using www.contextshift.co.uk which
> has a bigger spread of capacities, but I've not read their opinions
> recently enough to know how good it is.

I know the people who run contextshift.  They know what they're doing.

-- 
David Cantrell | top google result for "internet beard fetish club"

Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt

From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Tue Jun 17 11:12:40 2008
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:12:40 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN - as I understand it
In-Reply-To: <48566d87.H/e/d4h8pCJ2JUO2%mjr@phonecoop.coop>
References: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com>
	<48539029.Puy5UMNshT7AUj/I%mjr@phonecoop.coop>
	<20080616120254.GC21023@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<48566d87.H/e/d4h8pCJ2JUO2%mjr@phonecoop.coop>
Message-ID: <edcafa7d0806170312s3cc9257fo904476c2f9ff58ed@mail.gmail.com>

2008/6/16 MJ Ray <mjr at phonecoop.coop>:
> If they're very low-end, I'd say they'll probably be happy sharing
> hosting with some of our other customers.  Above that, I've not had
> much trouble justifying ongoing contracts but that may be because:-
> 1. our customers are smarter than average;
> 2. we bill them on a three-month moving average; and/or
> 3. the cooperative difference.

Shared hosting on servers provided by contractor is the norm - shared
hosting with some budget outfit is IMHO amateurish.

> Do many of the other webmasters here have ongoing contracts?

Yes, but I try to avoid it, it's a unwanted job of having to bill (and
often chase) a client every month with little margin.

A.

-- 
http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk
LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting

From something at amias.org.uk  Tue Jun 17 11:36:09 2008
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:36:09 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN - as I understand it
In-Reply-To: <4852BFE5.7080707@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4852611A.4030502@cosmicperl.com> <4852ABA2.9030203@dave.org.uk>
	<4852BFE5.7080707@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <1213698969.9535.16.camel@home>

On Fri, 2008-06-13 at 19:43 +0100, Lyle wrote:
> I have been following strawberry Perl, I think I'm lurking on the 
> vanilla mailing list as well (slow moving though). I'm hoping that 
> they'll keep making great progress... Although right now it's not going 
> to solve the problem I'm seeing, and the project I'm working towards 
> will compliment Strawberry perl as well... and all the other Perl 
> flavours for that matter.

pah , well i shall stick to good old beer flavoured Perl.

Toodle-pip
Amias
-- 
 Freelance programming , consultancy and hardware builds
blog.amias.org.uk * www.amias.org.uk * www.ecotalk.org.uk



From something at amias.org.uk  Tue Jun 17 12:09:07 2008
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:09:07 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Project
In-Reply-To: <4852C6F2.9000209@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4852C6F2.9000209@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <1213700947.9535.35.camel@home>

On Fri, 2008-06-13 at 20:13 +0100, Lyle wrote:
> Hi All,
>   Here is the outline:-
> 
> http://perl.bristolbath.org/projects/cpan.html
> 
> Aim:- "Bring CPAN to the masses... and make Perl scripts easy to 
> install" - or something along those lines :)
> 
> Please take the time out to read through, then hit me with all your 
> criticism ;)

There are some wrinkles with CPAN but i'm not sure it needs to be
remade , to me it sounds like you are suggesting some sort of
CPAN::Simple

A lot of the issues you mention could be solved by encouraging 
hosting providers to pre configure cpan with PREFIX set to some
where in the users home directory.

Maybe a toolkit to help roll out these settings might solve most of the
problems ? i.e make it so easy that it happens

One of the reasons i use dreamhost is because its almost become a
standard
configuration in that most of its quirks are documented through the
sheer volume of  other users on the same platform. This goes a long way
to mitagating the problems of shared hosting ( although it provides many
others of its own ;) and other providers could benefit from some kind of
standardisation.

Perl certified hosting would be a pretty cool idea , but only if we can
call it 
Poosticks.

Its not quite as exciting but its very doable and you won't need to herd
so many cats.

Toodle-pip
Amias

-- 
 Freelance programming , consultancy and hardware builds
blog.amias.org.uk * www.amias.org.uk * www.ecotalk.org.uk



From nigel at turbo10.com  Mon Jun 23 13:25:22 2008
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 13:25:22 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Social Meeting Tomorrow Night ~~ (Sun | Ducks |
	Perl | Beer)
Message-ID: <50fec4060806230525w6e1d2e3au76e8004773260773@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

      I'm looking forward to our social meeting tomorrow night in Bath [1].
Please pass on the invitation to anyone you think may be interested.

      If you want to give a lightning talk [2] on a topic of your choice
feel free but there is no obligation/requirement to give a talk.

      Here are some talk ideas that may or may not give you some inspiration
...

      * my last 5 days using Perl ...
      * my favourite Perl module is ...
      * I got a nasty problem ... help!? ..
      * my company uses Perl for ...
      * how I started with Perl
      * my favourite book is ...

     See you tomorrow night at the "Opa Bar" in Bath[1].

Nige

[1] http://use.perl.org/article.pl?sid=08/06/06/0816202
[2] 5 minute talk on a topic of your choice - doesn't even need to be about
Perl
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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Mon Jun 23 19:18:40 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 19:18:40 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Social Meeting Tomorrow Night ~~ (Sun | Ducks |
 Perl | Beer)
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060806230525w6e1d2e3au76e8004773260773@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060806230525w6e1d2e3au76e8004773260773@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <485FE900.4040506@cosmicperl.com>

Nigel Hamilton wrote:
> Hi,
>
>       I'm looking forward to our social meeting tomorrow night in Bath 
> [1]. Please pass on the invitation to anyone you think may be interested.

Anyone from Bristol who wants a lift drop me an email.

>       If you want to give a lightning talk [2] on a topic of your 
> choice feel free but there is no obligation/requirement to give a talk.

Still plenty of time to put a talk together, I'll be getting mine ready 
tonight :)


Lyle


From something at amias.org.uk  Tue Jun 24 15:52:31 2008
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:52:31 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Social Meeting Tomorrow Night ~~ (Sun | Ducks	|
	Perl | Beer)
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060806230525w6e1d2e3au76e8004773260773@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060806230525w6e1d2e3au76e8004773260773@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1214319151.6784.23.camel@home>

On Mon, 2008-06-23 at 13:25 +0100, Nigel Hamilton wrote:
> Hi,
> 
>       I'm looking forward to our social meeting tomorrow night in Bath
> [1]. Please pass on the invitation to anyone you think may be
> interested. 

What time does it start ?

> [1] http://use.perl.org/article.pl?sid=08/06/06/0816202

seems to be down

Toodle-pip
Amias

-- 
 Freelance programming , consultancy and hardware builds
blog.amias.org.uk * www.amias.org.uk * www.ecotalk.org.uk



From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Tue Jun 24 16:44:20 2008
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:44:20 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Social Meeting Tomorrow Night ~~ (Sun | Ducks |
 Perl | Beer)
References: <50fec4060806230525w6e1d2e3au76e8004773260773@mail.gmail.com>
	<1214319151.6784.23.camel@home>
Message-ID: <PGM.20080624154419.29895.9069@edison.ioppublishing.com>

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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Wed Jun 25 03:29:57 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 03:29:57 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Social Meeting Tomorrow Night ~~ (Sun | Ducks |
 Perl | Beer)
In-Reply-To: <1214319151.6784.23.camel@home>
References: <50fec4060806230525w6e1d2e3au76e8004773260773@mail.gmail.com>
	<1214319151.6784.23.camel@home>
Message-ID: <4861ADA5.3000403@cosmicperl.com>

Amias Channer wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-06-23 at 13:25 +0100, Nigel Hamilton wrote:
>   
>> Hi,
>>
>>       I'm looking forward to our social meeting tomorrow night in Bath
>> [1]. Please pass on the invitation to anyone you think may be
>> interested. 
>>     
>
> What time does it start ?
>   

7pm as Peter said (thanks Peter). Didn't see you there??


Lyle


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Wed Jun 25 03:47:29 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 03:47:29 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Meet
Message-ID: <4861B1C1.8080503@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  Thanks to all those who came to the meet. I thought the lightening 
talks were great (especially those that were made up on the spot, lol). 
Giving us all a good insight into other peoples experiences with Perl.

( A special thanks to Laura who managed to cope with the high tech 
conversation all evening and providing ( in my opinion at most ) us all 
with something nice to look at :)


Lyle


From nigel at turbo10.com  Wed Jun 25 07:12:37 2008
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:12:37 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Meet
In-Reply-To: <4861B1C1.8080503@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4861B1C1.8080503@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <50fec4060806242312v5e345d90n9439d994cce35eff@mail.gmail.com>

Hear. Hear.

I think she should win the "Sex in the City" award for managing to stay
conscious. Her prize should be a ticket for two to go and see it - go on
Lyle it won't hurt *that* much [1]. ;-)

Thanks to all those who turned up. Here are some random ideas that came up:

- driving from Bristol to Bath takes longer than expected - the train is
pretty quick though
- everyone's /path/to/perl is unique and interesting
- a lot of us have the pain of a slow test->run->code->test loop
- CPAN authorship - experiences + module ideas - resting on random
dispatching nano methods
- holidaying in France
- HTTP 5.0 - DO/EXEC? [2]
- ModPerl vs FastCGI vs ....
- Moose? meet Mouse
- "cranky" Perl culture an antidote? = do good, be good, ignore it
- and much more ...

Looking forward to the next one.

Nige

[1] I'm still recovering a week later
[2] I need to think this one through in the cold light of day
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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Mon Jun 30 16:06:44 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:06:44 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] T-Shirt... and you thought I'd forgotten ;)
Message-ID: <4868F684.8030901@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  Here is the first draft:-
http://perl.bristolbath.org/tshirt/front.png
http://perl.bristolbath.org/tshirt/back.png

I'm not sure on the font, or about having so many logos on the back. I 
am happy with the slogan and the duck logo :)

Comments and suggestions!


Lyle


From nigel at turbo10.com  Mon Jun 30 16:34:19 2008
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:34:19 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] T-Shirt... and you thought I'd forgotten ;)
In-Reply-To: <4868F684.8030901@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4868F684.8030901@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <50fec4060806300834o35015e21ke72623f54385ad78@mail.gmail.com>

HI Lyle,

      I really like the front. I think the duck and big hat work well
together

      I only have a couple of suggestions - you could ad the url of the
website on the front - as a kind of call-to-action that helps to clarify
what it is for the uninitiated - http://perl.bristolbath.org.






2008/6/30 Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com>:

> Hi All,
>  Here is the first draft:-
> http://perl.bristolbath.org/tshirt/front.png
> http://perl.bristolbath.org/tshirt/back.png
>
> I'm not sure on the font, or about having so many logos on the back. I
> am happy with the slogan and the duck logo :)
>
> Comments and suggestions!
>
>
> Lyle
>
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>
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From nigel at turbo10.com  Mon Jun 30 17:53:25 2008
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:53:25 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] T-Shirt... and you thought I'd forgotten ;)
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060806300834o35015e21ke72623f54385ad78@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4868F684.8030901@cosmicperl.com>
	<50fec4060806300834o35015e21ke72623f54385ad78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50fec4060806300953paa2c24ax14aaa651014fe356@mail.gmail.com>

My other suggestions would be to place the strapline more prominently - and
possibly make it shorter ... some strapline suggestions in varying degrees
of crapiness ...

Perl productivity + utility
-----------------------------------
"Know Perl and know the job is done"
"Is Perl in your programmers toolbox?"
"Program in Perl and go home early"
"Program Perl => Go Home Early"

Artistic Perl
-----------------
"Programming Poets Prefer Perl"

#!/usr/bin/loving/perl

"HAL I can help. Just open the airlock!!?"
"I'm sorry Dave. I'm afraid you don't know Perl."
        HAL-9000 - Space Odyssey 2001

Ducks and Perl
-----------------------
"If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ... it must be a Perl duck"

Future Perl
----------------
"Perl6 is Coming!"
"Perl is Dead. Long live Perl."
"Perl6 by XMAS? When Perl6 comes every day will feel like XMAS."

Just some ideas ....


Nige




>
>
>
>
>
> 2008/6/30 Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com>:
>
> Hi All,
>>  Here is the first draft:-
>> http://perl.bristolbath.org/tshirt/front.png
>> http://perl.bristolbath.org/tshirt/back.png
>>
>> I'm not sure on the font, or about having so many logos on the back. I
>> am happy with the slogan and the duck logo :)
>>
>> Comments and suggestions!
>>
>>
>> Lyle
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BristolBathPM mailing list
>> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
>> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>>
>
>
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From paulm at paulm.com  Mon Jun 30 18:09:33 2008
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:09:33 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] T-Shirt... and you thought I'd forgotten ;)
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060806300953paa2c24ax14aaa651014fe356@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4868F684.8030901@cosmicperl.com>
	<50fec4060806300834o35015e21ke72623f54385ad78@mail.gmail.com>
	<50fec4060806300953paa2c24ax14aaa651014fe356@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0806301009s2fac82f0l455aac3bc1a6dc66@mail.gmail.com>

Perl: it's the proper job!

The image is great, btw, good stuff :-)

P

2008/6/30 Nigel Hamilton <nigel at turbo10.com>:
> My other suggestions would be to place the strapline more prominently - and
> possibly make it shorter ... some strapline suggestions in varying degrees
> of crapiness ...
>
> Perl productivity + utility
> -----------------------------------
> "Know Perl and know the job is done"
> "Is Perl in your programmers toolbox?"
> "Program in Perl and go home early"
> "Program Perl => Go Home Early"
>
> Artistic Perl
> -----------------
> "Programming Poets Prefer Perl"
>
> #!/usr/bin/loving/perl
>
> "HAL I can help. Just open the airlock!!?"
> "I'm sorry Dave. I'm afraid you don't know Perl."
>         HAL-9000 - Space Odyssey 2001
>
> Ducks and Perl
> -----------------------
> "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ... it must be a Perl duck"
>
> Future Perl
> ----------------
> "Perl6 is Coming!"
> "Perl is Dead. Long live Perl."
> "Perl6 by XMAS? When Perl6 comes every day will feel like XMAS."
>
> Just some ideas ....
>
>
> Nige
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2008/6/30 Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com>:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>  Here is the first draft:-
>>> http://perl.bristolbath.org/tshirt/front.png
>>> http://perl.bristolbath.org/tshirt/back.png
>>>
>>> I'm not sure on the font, or about having so many logos on the back. I
>>> am happy with the slogan and the duck logo :)
>>>
>>> Comments and suggestions!
>>>
>>>
>>> Lyle
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BristolBathPM mailing list
>>> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
>>> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>
>

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Mon Jun 30 21:47:32 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 21:47:32 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] T-Shirt... and you thought I'd forgotten ;)
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060806300953paa2c24ax14aaa651014fe356@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4868F684.8030901@cosmicperl.com>	<50fec4060806300834o35015e21ke72623f54385ad78@mail.gmail.com>
	<50fec4060806300953paa2c24ax14aaa651014fe356@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48694664.4080800@cosmicperl.com>

Hmm... The slogan is a bit long. Though I really wanted to push the fact
that Perl can do pretty much anything. Goes with my next debate....


Lyle




From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Mon Jun 30 22:34:25 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 22:34:25 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Which language to use for what? - Looking at things
 from a different angle...
Message-ID: <48695161.1030201@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  These days I hear a lot of:-
"You should use language X for this, language Y for that and language Z 
for the other"
"Because language X was designed for this, Y is most commonly used for 
that, and Z was made for that OS"

Sounds perfectly fine in theory, but what is the reality?

The way I see it this method has many problems for businesses, 
particularly SME's but I see big businesses being effected as well.

Here is a hypothetical Scenario.

You hire 'Super Programmer' who can code X Y Z at a high level. He makes 
you sysadmin scripts in X, web scripts in Y and gets other pieces of 
software talking to each other with Z. These guys are rare, making them 
difficult to replace by a single person when they leave. They are also 
very expensive.

He leaves the company and you cannot find a replacement who knows all of 
the languages at a high level, you need someone fast and it'd take to 
long to train someone up.
You end up employing 2 people instead one doing X and Y and another 
doing Z. This means more managerial time is devoted to getting the two 
programmers working together properly and more admin time processing 
things like PAYE, etc.

A month on and one of your programmers finds that some of the software 
he needs to update and maintain is actually coded in rare language W. 
The original 'super programmer' discovered this new language and used it 
as it was designed specifically for the job in hand. Unfortunately there 
is little documentation and the language has since died and is no longer 
maintained. Much time is lost recoding everything to language Z.

The companies business shifts a little and they want to target a new 
platform. The best languages to use on this new platform are A, B and C. 
The current programmers are not familiar with these languages. Training 
them would be to slow and costly. It's feared that them having to use to 
many different languages, will hinder their performance on the ones they 
are currently using.

So the decision is made to outsource this platform to another company. 
Many issues arise getting the outsourced programmers to work well with 
the in house programmers, and keeping both platform versions in sync 
with each other.

A lot of time. A lot of money. A lot of headache.


Here is another hypothetical Scenario.

You hire a Perl programmer. He makes you sysadmin scripts in Perl, web 
scripts in Perl and gets other pieces of software talking to each other 
with Perl.

When he leaves you replace him with another Perl programmer.

When the work gets to much for him, you hire another Perl programmer to 
work with him.

When the company wants to target another platform, your Perl programmers 
code the software in Perl.

Of course coding in Perl all the programmers get to go home early :)

Call me a Perl loving fool if you will. But I don't see any other 
scripting language out there that comes close to handling a diverse 
range of tasks, as well as Perl does.


I apologise that the scenario isn't presented better. My English was 
never that good :p



Lyle


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Mon Jun 30 23:32:39 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 23:32:39 +0100
Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Project
In-Reply-To: <4852C6F2.9000209@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4852C6F2.9000209@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <48695F07.1010607@cosmicperl.com>

Lyle wrote:
> Hi All,
>   Here is the outline:-
>
> http://perl.bristolbath.org/projects/cpan.html
>
> Aim:- "Bring CPAN to the masses... and make Perl scripts easy to 
> install" - or something along those lines :)
>
> Please take the time out to read through, then hit me with all your 
> criticism ;)
>   

This response is much delayed. I've had it in my drafts for over a week. 
Unfortunately I wrote the original version after I'd been drinking (was 
a Friday night after all). Luckily past experience has taught me that 
sending emails written when drunk is a very bad idea ( cabal members 
will surly agree ). The sarcasm, tongue in cheek humour that is so 
easily understood down the pub simply doesn't translate into email.

So here is the abridged version. If it comes off wrong I assure you it 
isn't intended to upset or offend anyone.


Hmmm. I'm concerned, for I hear a lot of:-
  " I know this problem, but it no longer effects me ".
  " I can see this being a problem for others, but I don't care because 
in my situation... "
  " I had this in the past, but I'm not worried about those other people 
any more.. "
  " If all the hosting companies would change, this wouldn't be a 
problem..."

In my head this reads:-
  100% of people online could be using Perl, but..
  " I know this problem, but it no longer effects me ".
  90% of people online could be using Perl, but..
  " I can see this being a problem for others, but I don't care because 
in my situation... "
  80% of people online could be using Perl, but...
  " I had this in the past, but I'm not worried about those other people 
any more.. "
  70% of people online could be using Perl, but...
  " If all the hosting companies would change, this wouldn't be a 
problem..."
    On a side note: " I think Amias' idea of 'Perl Certified hosting' is 
a really good idea. Hosting companies love being able to stick official 
logos on their pages, if we could get TPF to endorse a couple of Linux 
and Win32 CPAN bundles I think we could be onto a winner "
  60% of people online could be using Perl, but...
  " Perl should only be used for ..''speakers preferred Perl 
application''.. I don't think it should be used for anything else"
  40% of people online *Would* be choosing Perl but...
  " They don't realize that Perl could be doing pretty much Everything 
they need server wise without batting an eyelid. Meaning you don't need 
a PHP develeroper, a Java developer, a Python, Ruby, LISP and JSP 
developer, all you need is a Perl developer ( or a smaller collection of 
Perl developers ) and him/her/they will be able to handle the complete 
set of tasks you require efficiently with a single language. Perl! "

I LOVE Perl! I will promote it till the end. That is because, in my mind 
it is the Harrier Jump Jet of programming languages, the jack of all 
trades that makes it so effective in the field of combat. Perl can do 
what all the others can, where most are pretty much limited to certain 
areas, Perl can do it all, and on top of that beat many at there own 
game! My personal goal is to make it as available (especially CPAN) as 
possible to everyone. From those on the cheapest hosting in the World to 
those with the most expensive cluster of multi CPU servers. It want it 
to be as easy as possible for anyone to use it and to start programming 
in it. I was everyone to realise that Perl is probably the golden 
solution they have been looking for.

  To me the choice is simple:-
- For an individual you can choose Perl or another language. If you 
don't use Perl then sooner or later you'll be finding yourself learning 
another language or struggling to get your language to do what you want.
- For a small company you can choose Perl or another language. If you 
don't use Perl then sooner or later you'll have to invest in programmers 
of another language or training your current staff to use another language.
- For a large company you can choose Perl or another language. If you 
don't use Perl then soon you'll have to invest in programmers of another 
language or training your current staff to use another language. You'll 
have difficulty getting the languages to work together and then when 
Perl 6 comes out, you'll end up re-training everyone to understand Perl 
6 and get the languages working together properly like you had intended 
before... Although you could have done everything in Perl in the first 
place.


Lyle