From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Thu May 1 00:10:47 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle - CosmicPerl.com Support) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 00:10:47 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Dead link. In-Reply-To: <307203ff0804301539l29ca0e7xe45cd5225f9e79ac@mail.gmail.com> References: <307203ff0804301539l29ca0e7xe45cd5225f9e79ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4818FC77.1020604@cosmicperl.com> Chris Andrew wrote: > Hi, all. > > The link referred to in the previous message, seems to be dead: > > http://www.comicperl.com/geekometer.html > > Is it me? > > The domain is waiting for DNS to propagate so the link should work in a few hours or so. I was under quite a bit of pressure to launch the site and new list ASAP. I'm sure there will be a few typos and problems that need sorting in the next few days... By the way it would be great if you could give me your details and a pic to go on the people page. Lyle From greg at mccarroll.org.uk Thu May 1 00:50:55 2008 From: greg at mccarroll.org.uk (Greg McCarroll) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 00:50:55 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Dead link. In-Reply-To: <4818FC77.1020604@cosmicperl.com> References: <307203ff0804301539l29ca0e7xe45cd5225f9e79ac@mail.gmail.com> <4818FC77.1020604@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <20080430235055.GA25245@mccarroll.org.uk> On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 12:10:47AM +0100, Lyle - CosmicPerl.com Support wrote: > > I'm sure there will be a few typos and problems that need sorting in the > next few days... By the way it would be great if you could give me your > details and a pic to go on the people page. > I hate to say this as you maybe put a lot of work into it, but ... The flash logo really gets tired, especially when you click on the 2nd or 3rd link. G. p.s. I'm not really a member so please don't add me to the people page. From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Thu May 1 01:13:21 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle - CosmicPerl.com Support) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 01:13:21 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Dead link. In-Reply-To: <20080430235055.GA25245@mccarroll.org.uk> References: <307203ff0804301539l29ca0e7xe45cd5225f9e79ac@mail.gmail.com> <4818FC77.1020604@cosmicperl.com> <20080430235055.GA25245@mccarroll.org.uk> Message-ID: <48190B21.4000507@cosmicperl.com> Greg McCarroll wrote: > I hate to say this as you maybe put a lot of work into it, but ... > > The flash logo really gets tired, especially when you click on the 2nd > or 3rd link. > > My thoughts exactly, funnily enough I just showed my girlfriend the site and I said the exact same thing. I'll have my designer sort it so that it only animates on the index page, or first time a visitor hits the site. This was a rush job and I had so much work on with my latest software update that I haven't had much chance to proof his work on this site. Although that said thanks for the feedback ;) Lyle From revford at blueyonder.co.uk Thu May 1 01:23:32 2008 From: revford at blueyonder.co.uk (Gavin Ford) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 01:23:32 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Dead link. In-Reply-To: <20080430235055.GA25245@mccarroll.org.uk> References: <307203ff0804301539l29ca0e7xe45cd5225f9e79ac@mail.gmail.com> <4818FC77.1020604@cosmicperl.com> <20080430235055.GA25245@mccarroll.org.uk> Message-ID: <20080501002332.GA16867@bluemidget> On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 12:50:55AM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote: > I hate to say this as you maybe put a lot of work into it, but ... > > The flash logo really gets tired, especially when you click on the 2nd > or 3rd link. I didn't see the flashing scrabble thing before, NoScript did away with it. Maybe it could live on a cover/prologue type page, then move the menu bar to the top of the content pages? -- Gav Ford revford at blueyonder.co.uk http://revford.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk I think we need to: Calibrate the booster grid -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080501/104e2709/attachment.bin From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Thu May 1 05:22:54 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle - CosmicPerl.com Support) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 05:22:54 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Dead link. In-Reply-To: <20080501002332.GA16867@bluemidget> References: <307203ff0804301539l29ca0e7xe45cd5225f9e79ac@mail.gmail.com> <4818FC77.1020604@cosmicperl.com> <20080430235055.GA25245@mccarroll.org.uk> <20080501002332.GA16867@bluemidget> Message-ID: <4819459E.2050002@cosmicperl.com> Gavin Ford wrote: > I didn't see the flashing scrabble thing before, NoScript did away > with it. > > Maybe it could live on a cover/prologue type page, then move the menu > bar to the top of > the content pages? > Lost me a bit there. Are you talking about a splash page? I tend to avoid these as they are bad for PR. The designer is in again Friday. Hopefully we can thrash out changes through tomorrow when everyone else wakes up, ready for Friday. Once we are happy with it, I (and hopefully a few others) will start promoting the list to get new signups. I think the free perl course should help attract some people new to programming and maybe even some converts. My current promotion plans are:- LUG _ PerlMonks Perl Groups Ad Server SWWD (not that many people seem to be there anymore) ... If anyone knows of other places it would be good to promote... Lyle From robingarthedwards at googlemail.com Thu May 1 09:00:42 2008 From: robingarthedwards at googlemail.com (Rob Edwards) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 09:00:42 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] IRC Message-ID: Anyone use IRC.. a channel on irc.perl.org would be nice :) Rob From nigel at turbo10.com Thu May 1 09:29:14 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (nigel at turbo10.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 09:29:14 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Fwd: Welcome to the "BristolBathPM" mailing list In-Reply-To: <50fec4060805010127p2ba36082sa2c8683fdf11cf57@mail.gmail.com> References: <50fec4060805010127p2ba36082sa2c8683fdf11cf57@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <50fec4060805010129w3ff12ca5w82f8630ccaf6d2df@mail.gmail.com> HI Lyle, Good to see the light bulb getting turned on again. I just moved to Bath so am keen to meet up with other local Perl Mongers. Feel free to add my details to the people page: Nigel Hamilton is a Bath-based Perl Monger who sticks search engines (http://trexy.com and http://turbo10.com) together with the help of Perl and a Memex-inspired system called TheGoo (http://blog.thegoo.org). On the first Tuesday of the month he can be found in London raising the flag at a pub crawl for techies (http://flag-and-bell.com). Nige From revford at blueyonder.co.uk Thu May 1 11:08:20 2008 From: revford at blueyonder.co.uk (Gavin Ford) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 11:08:20 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Portable code reuse, a question about Perl Message-ID: <20080501100820.GA19393@bluemidget> As the list is up and going, I thought I'd ask a Perl question. :) I'm wondering if I'm making things over complicated for myself. I have a few subroutines I reuse in a few scripts, so I moved them to another file in the same directory and link them into each script with something like: use FindBin '$Bin'; require "$Bin/lib-rf-iplayer.pl"; I had been entering the full path on the require line, but this was a bit rubbish as it needed to be tweaked for different machines or users. But this still feels like I'm going a step too far. Is there a simpler way to require a file relative to the script instead of relative to the working directory? -- Gav Ford revford at blueyonder.co.uk http://revford.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk I think we need to: Deflect the energon condenser -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080501/86f6e44a/attachment.bin From aaron.trevena at gmail.com Thu May 1 12:06:37 2008 From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 12:06:37 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Portable code reuse, a question about Perl In-Reply-To: <20080501100820.GA19393@bluemidget> References: <20080501100820.GA19393@bluemidget> Message-ID: 2008/5/1 Gavin Ford : > I'm wondering if I'm making things over complicated for myself. Common enough :) > I have a few subroutines I reuse in a few scripts, so I moved them to another > file in the same directory and link them into each script with something like: > > use FindBin '$Bin'; > require "$Bin/lib-rf-iplayer.pl"; > > I had been entering the full path on the require line, but this was a bit > rubbish as it needed to be tweaked for different machines or users. > > But this still feels like I'm going a step too far. Not just too far, but in the wrong direction. Why not spend a very small ammount of time to turn it into a module. Then you can just 'use lib-rf-iplayer;' at the top of each script and it will just work. > Is there a simpler way to require a file relative to the script instead of > relative to the working directory? That's probably the wrong question :) But setting PERL5_LIB is likely to helpful whether going the right way or the wrong way - so http://sial.org/blog/2006/08/customize_inc_via_perl5lib.html is worth a read. A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting From lyle at allaffiliatepro.com Thu May 1 13:42:52 2008 From: lyle at allaffiliatepro.com (Lyle - AllAffiliatePro) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 13:42:52 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Portable code reuse, a question about Perl In-Reply-To: <20080501100820.GA19393@bluemidget> References: <20080501100820.GA19393@bluemidget> Message-ID: <4819BACC.8070101@allaffiliatepro.com> Gavin Ford wrote: > As the list is up and going, I thought I'd ask a Perl question. :) > > I'm wondering if I'm making things over complicated for myself. > > I have a few subroutines I reuse in a few scripts, so I moved them to another > file in the same directory and link them into each script with something like: > > use FindBin '$Bin'; > require "$Bin/lib-rf-iplayer.pl"; > > I had been entering the full path on the require line, but this was a bit > rubbish as it needed to be tweaked for different machines or users. > > But this still feels like I'm going a step too far. > > Is there a simpler way to require a file relative to the script instead of > relative to the working directory? > I use FindBin in every cgi script I make. Windows tends to execute cgi's with a different working directory to where they actually are. This can confuse people when reading and writing to files, it also doesn't tend to have the cgi scripts directory in @INC. So if you simply use modulename; you'll get and can't find error. This small snippet of code near the top of each cgi script goes a long way towards making your script more portatble across different OS's. use FindBin qw ( $RealBin ); use lib $FindBin::RealBin; ## I've found $RealBin works in more situations than $Bin. Now it'll pickup your requires and uses properly. chdir $RealBin; ## Change to the scripts directory. Now it'll pick your file read and writes properly. I'd also go with Aaron's suggestion of making it a proper perl module. Lyle From davehodg at gmail.com Thu May 1 00:56:07 2008 From: davehodg at gmail.com (Dave Hodgkinson) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 01:56:07 +0200 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Dead link. In-Reply-To: <20080430235055.GA25245@mccarroll.org.uk> References: <307203ff0804301539l29ca0e7xe45cd5225f9e79ac@mail.gmail.com> <4818FC77.1020604@cosmicperl.com> <20080430235055.GA25245@mccarroll.org.uk> Message-ID: <5E7BE27C-3FD3-4DD9-8102-1FB257EFC3D7@gmail.com> On 1 May 2008, at 01:50, Greg McCarroll wrote: > On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 12:10:47AM +0100, Lyle - CosmicPerl.com > Support wrote: >> >> I'm sure there will be a few typos and problems that need sorting >> in the >> next few days... By the way it would be great if you could give me >> your >> details and a pic to go on the people page. >> > > I hate to say this as you maybe put a lot of work into it, but ... > > The flash logo really gets tired, especially when you click on the 2nd > or 3rd link. > > G. > > p.s. I'm not really a member so please don't add me to the people > page. Me neither. From davehodg at gmail.com Thu May 1 11:23:01 2008 From: davehodg at gmail.com (Dave Hodgkinson) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 12:23:01 +0200 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Portable code reuse, a question about Perl In-Reply-To: <20080501100820.GA19393@bluemidget> References: <20080501100820.GA19393@bluemidget> Message-ID: <6A7BAFB5-F6AA-41D0-924E-B54AB7506BB5@gmail.com> On 1 May 2008, at 12:08, Gavin Ford wrote: > As the list is up and going, I thought I'd ask a Perl question. :) > > I'm wondering if I'm making things over complicated for myself. > > I have a few subroutines I reuse in a few scripts, so I moved them > to another > file in the same directory and link them into each script with > something like: > > use FindBin '$Bin'; > require "$Bin/lib-rf-iplayer.pl"; > > I had been entering the full path on the require line, but this was > a bit > rubbish as it needed to be tweaked for different machines or users. > > But this still feels like I'm going a step too far. > > Is there a simpler way to require a file relative to the script > instead of > relative to the working directory? Set a search path outside the script. Add it to PERL5LIB or somesuch. -- Dave Hodgkinson MSN: davehodg at hotmail.com Site: http://www.davehodgkinson.com UK: +44 7768 49020 Blog: http://davehodg.blogspot.com NL: +31 654 982906 Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davehodg From nigel at turbo10.com Thu May 1 14:15:05 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 14:15:05 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Portable code reuse, a question about Perl In-Reply-To: <6A7BAFB5-F6AA-41D0-924E-B54AB7506BB5@gmail.com> References: <20080501100820.GA19393@bluemidget> <6A7BAFB5-F6AA-41D0-924E-B54AB7506BB5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50fec4060805010615h1a035cb0jeb1d247bdf9aa6f@mail.gmail.com> HI Gavin, I think you may be able to put a relative directory in there: '../lib/MyScript.pl' A bit like a relative URL. But I would also suggest making it a package and the file can be found in PERL5LIB you're in business. package MyScript; # goes here # and must end with true 1; Nige 2008/5/1 Dave Hodgkinson : > > On 1 May 2008, at 12:08, Gavin Ford wrote: > > > As the list is up and going, I thought I'd ask a Perl question. :) > > > > I'm wondering if I'm making things over complicated for myself. > > > > I have a few subroutines I reuse in a few scripts, so I moved them > > to another > > file in the same directory and link them into each script with > > something like: > > > > use FindBin '$Bin'; > > require "$Bin/lib-rf-iplayer.pl"; > > > > I had been entering the full path on the require line, but this was > > a bit > > rubbish as it needed to be tweaked for different machines or users. > > > > But this still feels like I'm going a step too far. > > > > Is there a simpler way to require a file relative to the script > > instead of > > relative to the working directory? > > > Set a search path outside the script. Add it to PERL5LIB or somesuch. > > -- > Dave Hodgkinson MSN: davehodg at hotmail.com > Site: http://www.davehodgkinson.com UK: +44 7768 49020 > Blog: http://davehodg.blogspot.com NL: +31 654 982906 > Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davehodg > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080501/2ab46748/attachment.html From nigel at turbo10.com Thu May 1 14:24:02 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 14:24:02 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Drive GMAIL RSS with Perl Message-ID: <50fec4060805010624g2ecbdba5i501f7bfbcce2b2eb@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I thought I'd ask a question too! .... I'm trying to suck in my email from Google into an RSS-esque style reader. Any ideas how you do this with Perl? Gmail is great for outsourcing the SPAM control problem --- spamassassin was consuming too much resources to maintain and run --- I mainly use Gmail as a first line of defence against spam but then I'm trying to insert _everything_ I deal with into the one system ( http://blog.thegoo.org). Nige -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080501/8fac4d4e/attachment.html From revford at blueyonder.co.uk Thu May 1 14:46:09 2008 From: revford at blueyonder.co.uk (Gavin Ford) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 14:46:09 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Portable code reuse, a question about Perl In-Reply-To: References: <20080501100820.GA19393@bluemidget> Message-ID: <20080501134609.GA6873@bluemidget> Cheers for all the ideas and suggestions everyone. Setting up the PERL5LIB looks handy for me, but I'd like to keep things fairly self contained for sharing code with non-techie friends. I have a friend who is a Mac user, if he can't install it by drag/drop it's no good to him. He thinks I've broken his computer when I open a Terminal window. :) I hadn't seriously considered modules before. Turning includes into modules seemed to be quite a task for little advantage. What am I missing there? I'll have a go with $RealBin rather than $Bin. I'd not honestly considered Windows users before, as I don't have access to a Windows machine to test things on. If it runs on a few flavours of Linux and Macs, I'm usually happy. Thanks again, you've all given me a few new things to tinker with. -- Gav Ford revford at blueyonder.co.uk http://revford.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk I think we need to: Vent the stealth adaptor -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080501/80f34428/attachment.bin From something at amias.org.uk Thu May 1 19:05:44 2008 From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 19:05:44 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Drive GMAIL RSS with Perl In-Reply-To: <50fec4060805010624g2ecbdba5i501f7bfbcce2b2eb@mail.gmail.com> References: <50fec4060805010624g2ecbdba5i501f7bfbcce2b2eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1209665144.6301.11.camel@home> On Thu, 2008-05-01 at 14:24 +0100, Nigel Hamilton wrote: > Hi, > I thought I'd ask a question too! .... I'm trying to suck in my > email from Google into an RSS-esque style reader. Any ideas how you do > this with Perl? Gmail is great for outsourcing the SPAM control > problem --- spamassassin was consuming too much resources to maintain > and run --- I mainly use Gmail as a first line of defence against spam > but then I'm trying to insert _everything_ I deal with into the one > system (http://blog.thegoo.org). You could read the mail using one of the many IMAP or POP3 modules on CPAN and then output as RSS using either a template or one of the XML / RSS modules on cpan. I'd recommend putting a cache infront of the rss feed or writing it to a file otherwise you might chew up all the cycles on your box regenerating it on every hit. Toodle-pip Amias -- Freelance programming , consultancy and hardware builds blog.amias.org.uk * www.amias.org.uk * www.ecotalk.org.uk From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Thu May 1 19:49:40 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle - CosmicPerl.com Support) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 19:49:40 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] What makes a good Web Admin Interface? Message-ID: <481A10C4.9090005@cosmicperl.com> I've been updating some 8 year old admin panel html that was directly in my script to use HTML::Template. I've got a mock up (now 2 years old) of what I planned the new admin interface to look like:- http://cosmicaffiliate.com/preview/ I want it to be perfect. I want it to be clean and simple to use, but also have that WoW factor. I don't think the current mock up has any WoW at all... Looking at the current template I'm going to use AJAX for the quick stats with it auto updating every X seconds. JavaScript for the quick help.. which I'll probably change to be floating that you can open/close... But what would give it some WoW? What admin panels do you use that you think are particularly special? Lyle From nigel at turbo10.com Fri May 2 09:10:44 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 09:10:44 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] What makes a good Web Admin Interface? In-Reply-To: <50fec4060805011218r3ab0aa3dv93027201c76bd040@mail.gmail.com> References: <481A10C4.9090005@cosmicperl.com> <50fec4060805011218r3ab0aa3dv93027201c76bd040@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <50fec4060805020110q4dbb9f59kc52b0840712a4240@mail.gmail.com> HI Lyle, That admin panel looks good to me --- I'm not sure about the frequency of the actions that your users will take --- maybe less common actions can be squirreled to a 2nd/3rd level menu? Generally I think 6 +/- 2 options is cognitively comfortable. I think "show me the money" is a big requirement for this style of commercial admin interface so I would have some account-specific welcome --- that is tailored to the user with a clear reminder of why they are there in the first place. The quicker the user can get back to their other work the more positive they will feel about your interface. I would avoid javascript myself and by reducing the number of options to sub-menus you could use some icons instead. I would make sure they are used sparingly though - speed is by far the most important usability factor for web applications. Here is a gallery of free icons I have found useful: freefavicon.com - http://freefavicon.com/freefavicons/business/index.php. Make sure they are cached on the client forever and use a version number in the url to change them. Consider generating menu pages with cronjobs daily - so they can be served as quickly as possible - use iframes for small bits of dynamic content. Here are some sites which I think do good functional, form design - http://markmail.org, http://webmin.com, http://thegumtree.com . NIge 2008/5/1 Lyle - CosmicPerl.com Support : I've been updating some 8 year old admin panel html that was directly in > my script to use HTML::Template. I've got a mock up (now 2 years old) of > what I planned the new admin interface to look like:- > http://cosmicaffiliate.com/preview/ > > I want it to be perfect. I want it to be clean and simple to use, but > also have that WoW factor. I don't think the current mock up has any WoW > at all... > > Looking at the current template I'm going to use AJAX for the quick > stats with it auto updating every X seconds. JavaScript for the quick > help.. which I'll probably change to be floating that you can > open/close... > > But what would give it some WoW? What admin panels do you use that you > think are particularly special? > > > Lyle > > > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080502/1c9b32ca/attachment-0001.html From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Fri May 2 20:40:30 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle - CosmicPerl.com Support) Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 20:40:30 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Google's quick these days... Message-ID: <481B6E2E.2000209@cosmicperl.com> The sites only been up for a couple of days, already we rank top for 'bristol perl' and 'bath perl'. P.S. New series of Peep Show tonight. WooHoo! From psykx.out at googlemail.com Mon May 5 12:41:30 2008 From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (psykx.out at googlemail.com) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 11:41:30 -0000 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] array or hash for large numbers Message-ID: <47FD64AD.9040609@gmail.com> Hey I am new to this list and Perl in general. I was wondering which would be faster between a hash and an array with a large (1000000+) size? specifically I need to be able to add new elements and access the lower elements in sequential order. I'm basically finding large prime numbers. Max From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Mon May 5 15:13:35 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle - CosmicPerl.com Support) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 15:13:35 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] array or hash for large numbers In-Reply-To: <47FD64AD.9040609@gmail.com> References: <47FD64AD.9040609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <481F160F.1000509@cosmicperl.com> psykx.out at googlemail.com wrote: > Hey I am new to this list and Perl in general. I was wondering which > would be faster between a hash and an array with a large (1000000+) > size? specifically I need to be able to add new elements and access > the lower elements in sequential order. I'm basically finding large > prime numbers. > > Max > Hi Max, May I be first to say welcome to the list! I'm not totally sure what you are trying to achieve, but I would have thought an array would have been faster. Although if you are just looking for prime numbers, then couldn't you achieve it with a simple for loop and only load the primes into a hash or array? for (my $number = 1; $num <= 1000000; $number++) { if (prime.... etc }#for There is probably something on CPAN that'll help with this kind of thing. Although a quick google has found a snippet of code that might do exactly what you want:- http://timjoh.com/calculate-prime-numbers-with-perl/ P.S. I think the date is off on your computer as this message is marked 10th April? Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Mon May 5 15:41:52 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle - CosmicPerl.com Support) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 15:41:52 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Would you all prefer a reply-to B&BPM? Message-ID: <481F1CB0.1050206@cosmicperl.com> Hi All, I was about to update mailman so that all posts come with a reply-to so simply hitting reply will reply to the list rather than the poster. I for one am always hitting reply by accident when I man reply-all. A quick check on google indicated that there is a huge debate and divide between people who think the reply-to is a must, and those that think the reply-to is a mustn't. So please could you post your opinion, we can decide this democratically. Lyle -- CosmicPerl.com CGI Scripts Lyle Hopkins "How can I help?" From something at amias.org.uk Mon May 5 15:36:57 2008 From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 15:36:57 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] array or hash for large numbers In-Reply-To: <47FD64AD.9040609@gmail.com> References: <47FD64AD.9040609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1209998217.6519.12.camel@home> On Thu, 2008-04-10 at 01:51 +0100, psykx.out at googlemail.com wrote: > Hey I am new to this list and Perl in general. I was wondering which > would be faster between a hash and an array with a large (1000000+) > size? specifically I need to be able to add new elements and access the > lower elements in sequential order. I'm basically finding large prime > numbers. Hashes are array's with an extra bit of magic , this means arrays will always be faster for straightforward accessing of data. If you are finding primes then your data will most likely be fairly sparse so an array might not be that suitable , what do you intend to use as a key ? Toodle-pip Amias -- Freelance programming , consultancy and hardware builds blog.amias.org.uk * www.amias.org.uk * www.ecotalk.org.uk From something at amias.org.uk Mon May 5 15:57:17 2008 From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 15:57:17 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] This list Message-ID: <1209999437.6519.22.camel@home> Hello All , This list is a bit odd and heres why .... 1. As a perlmongers list it should be on pm.org , may i ask why its not ? 2. Why does every post seem to need moderation ? 3. Does anyone else but Lyle have the keys to it ? 4. Reply-to is not set back to this list , i'm sure all other pm lists do this. Lyle : Thanks for your efforts but please be aware that you are sending out quite sinister vibes (to my mind) with amount of control you have taken of this list . I'm sure its unintentional but please remember that anarchy is far more in keeping with Perl than a benign dictatorship. Toodle-pip Amias -- Freelance programming , consultancy and hardware builds blog.amias.org.uk * www.amias.org.uk * www.ecotalk.org.uk From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Mon May 5 16:30:46 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 16:30:46 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] This list In-Reply-To: <1209999437.6519.22.camel@home> References: <1209999437.6519.22.camel@home> Message-ID: <481F2826.9090203@cosmicperl.com> Amias Channer wrote: > Hello All , > > This list is a bit odd and heres why .... > > 1. As a perlmongers list it should be on pm.org , may i ask why its > not ? > When merging the lists, if I remember correctly there was an issue with having bristolbath.pm.org and bristol.pm.org and bath.pm.org had already existed. The easiest solution was to have bristol.pm.org and bath.pm.org redirect to a new list. As a matter the old bristol.pm.org was actually a re-direct to sift's servers. I can probably request and MX record change so that you can post directly to bristol.pm.org or bath.pm.org if you'd prefer. > 2. Why does every post seem to need moderation ? > Your posting from something at amias.org.uk whereas your subscription is for... umm... actually checking it your subscription is for something at amias.org.uk... odd... I'll look into it further next time I get a moderation request. Most posts are going straight on. > 3. Does anyone else but Lyle have the keys to it ? > Not at the moment. As far as I could tell only Dave had keys to the old list... Are you offering to help me run the list? :) > 4. Reply-to is not set back to this list , i'm sure all other pm lists > do this. > This isn't done on all lists. Depends on their config, hence my post asking people to vote. > Lyle : Thanks for your efforts but please be aware that you are sending > out quite sinister vibes (to my mind) with amount of control you have > taken of this list . I'm sure its unintentional but please remember > that > anarchy is far more in keeping with Perl than a benign dictatorship. > I have no intention of giving off such vibes sorry if I have. Certainly not a dictatorship.. please note my last post was asking people to vote democratically. > Toodle-pip > Amias > From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Mon May 5 16:32:17 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 16:32:17 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] We got a plug on use.perl! Message-ID: <481F2881.4040706@cosmicperl.com> http://use.perl.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/03/050240 From cms at beatworm.co.uk Mon May 5 17:05:06 2008 From: cms at beatworm.co.uk (Colin M. Strickland) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 17:05:06 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] array or hash for large numbers In-Reply-To: <47FD64AD.9040609@gmail.com> References: <47FD64AD.9040609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <092AD5EE-5B4C-4736-B6A6-7E093502CDDE@beatworm.co.uk> On 10 Apr 2008, at 01:51, psykx.out at googlemail.com wrote: > Hey I am new to this list and Perl in general. I was wondering which > would be faster between a hash and an array with a large (1000000+) > size? specifically I need to be able to add new elements and access > the > lower elements in sequential order. I'm basically finding large prime > numbers. > f you just want an n-sized bag of things, and the ability to access them in the order you stored them, you fundamentally want a list. I would guess using push/pop and shift/unshift ( perldoc -f shift , perldoc -f pop )to add and remove things from one would be the fastest way to access a sequence of items, but will modify the original list, which might not be what you want. Speed is not everything of course, and the performance of either would vary according to set size and access patterns. Do you actually need to remember millions of data, or are you just referring to the potential integer bounds of the set, from which you will need to store a subset of numbers? If you want *really* large sets of data that you can access quickly and in a structured fashion it may make more sense to look at using structured data on disk - for simple key/value lookup something like DBM or CDB would be ideal, and can be tied to hashes (perldoc perltie, or see DBM or CDB File CPAN modules for more info about this). You might even want to use a lightweight SQL database like mysql/isam or SQLlite, if you're already comfortable with that concept and API, although it's not a good match for the problem space IMO. Premature optimisation being the route of all evil, my tendency is to use a hash first in perl for structured data, because it tends to be more trivially self-documenting. -- Regards, Colin M. Strickland From cms at beatworm.co.uk Mon May 5 19:25:04 2008 From: cms at beatworm.co.uk (Colin M. Strickland) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 19:25:04 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] array or hash for large numbers In-Reply-To: <481F39D8.4000907@gmail.com> References: <47FD64AD.9040609@gmail.com> <481F39D8.4000907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <514FA713-BB0B-4CB9-9240-830C2D0D5691@beatworm.co.uk> On 5 May 2008, at 17:46, psykx.out at googlemail.com wrote: > I do need to use large sets of data because my current definitive > test for primes relies on being able to % against all primes up to > and including the square root of the number I'm testing. For this > reason a list won't work. I'm currently looking into faster > algorithms (Fermat's little theorem and The Euclidean algorithm) > although I'm pretty sure I won't be able to switch to a list > (coincidentally whats the difference between a list a stack and a > queue?). I really do have to optimize now as I left my program > running over night and I had only found the primes between 0 and > 700000. I'll look into use the tie::hash a bit more once I have a > better algorithm (and I have used it a bit more at work). Stacks are lists that you append to and remove from at a single end. Queues are lists that you append to at one end, and remove from at the other. They're different uses for lists. I'm sure I don't know enough detail about your work, but I'm not sure why what you describe precludes using a list? e.g. some perl-ish pseudocode - assume @known_primes is a list of primes you've found, next_test_case gives you a new number to test given the last test and the biggest known prime, and your test routine is my_test - does something like the following pseudoperl roughly fit your description ? # get a new test candidate based on our state while( $test_case = next_text_case($test_case,$known_primes[-1] ){ # iterate over the primes we've found so far, shoving the square root on the end of the iteration list foreach $prime (@known_primes, sqrt($test_case) ){ # if we find a prime, stick it on the end of the list and get a new candidate push @known_primes, $test_case && break if my_test($test_case,$prime); } } etc. I'm still not saying you definitely *should* use an array though. Just trying to offer some interesting avenues for further exploration. -- Regards, Colin M. Strickland From revford at blueyonder.co.uk Mon May 5 20:41:21 2008 From: revford at blueyonder.co.uk (Gavin Ford) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 20:41:21 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Would you all prefer a reply-to B&BPM? In-Reply-To: <481F1CB0.1050206@cosmicperl.com> References: <481F1CB0.1050206@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <20080505194121.GA16969@bluemidget> On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 03:41:52PM +0100, Lyle - CosmicPerl.com Support wrote: > I was about to update mailman so that all posts come with a reply-to > so simply hitting reply will reply to the list rather than the poster. I > for one am always hitting reply by accident when I man reply-all. > A quick check on google indicated that there is a huge debate and divide > between people who think the reply-to is a must, and those that think > the reply-to is a mustn't. > > > So please could you post your opinion, we can decide this democratically. A reply-to would be great. Cheers. -- Gav Ford revford at blueyonder.co.uk http://revford.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk I think we need to: Calibrate the energon switch -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080505/bdb2978f/attachment.bin From nigel at turbo10.com Mon May 5 22:01:30 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (nigel at turbo10.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 22:01:30 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Would you all prefer a reply-to B&BPM? In-Reply-To: <20080505194121.GA16969@bluemidget> References: <481F1CB0.1050206@cosmicperl.com> <20080505194121.GA16969@bluemidget> Message-ID: <50fec4060805051401v71594b93g52caa354ded34418@mail.gmail.com> > > > > So please could you post your opinion, we can decide this democratically. > I don't have a strong opinion either way. Although a number of people have been caught out on London.pm accidently replying to the entire list. I hope this list is a friendlier place where people are less 'agro' about mailing list misdemeanors. Nige > Cheers. > > -- > Gav Ford > revford at blueyonder.co.uk > http://revford.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk > I think we need to: Calibrate the energon switch > From psykx.out at googlemail.com Mon May 5 23:56:42 2008 From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (psykx.out at googlemail.com) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 23:56:42 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Would you all prefer a reply-to B&BPM? Message-ID: <481F90AA.6030000@gmail.com> I reply to would be great, I sent my first reply to lyle and my second to grant (blame the two pigs) it also helps with threading Max p.s third time lucky? From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Tue May 6 20:54:12 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 20:54:12 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Would you all prefer a reply-to B&BPM? In-Reply-To: <481F90AA.6030000@gmail.com> References: <481F90AA.6030000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4820B764.9090401@cosmicperl.com> It seems the general feeling (for those that replied and those that emailed me) is to have the reply to file added automatically. This has now (hopefully) been done. nigel at turbo10.com wrote: > I don't have a strong opinion either way. Although a number of people > have been caught out on London.pm accidently replying to the entire > list. > > I hope this list is a friendlier place where people are less 'agro' > about mailing list misdemeanors. > > Nige The idea in this list is that it will be a friendly place. I know that some lists (I wont name names) where you have a set 'in crowd' most made up of 'uber geeks', where the attitude is very much one rule for them, and another rule for you. They can troll, flame, insult you as much as they like, but if you dare stand up for yourself then you'll get kicked off. Here the idea is that we all post under the same rules, all being equal. Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Tue May 6 21:27:24 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 21:27:24 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] List Update Message-ID: <4820BF2C.3050203@cosmicperl.com> Hi All, It's only been a week and things have been moving forward. There are several new members, some have posted, others are lurking (don't be afraid to introduce yourselves). The site is looking a little better... Still could do with more people to go on the 'People' page (nudge, nudge). Think it could be time to start planning a meet. I was thinking a Tuesday, possibly 27th? Who's up for it and who's from where (trying to gage Bristol or Bath pub). Also as I've been searching around contacting people and promoting the group, the thought occurred that local Perl jobs could be posted here. I see this as potentially being a very good thing, encouraging Perl programmers and Perl companies to be on this list. Thoughts on this? Lyle From nigel at turbo10.com Wed May 7 07:46:35 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (nigel at turbo10.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 07:46:35 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] List Update In-Reply-To: <4820BF2C.3050203@cosmicperl.com> References: <4820BF2C.3050203@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <50fec4060805062346y61923f52v99b27cbaf379589@mail.gmail.com> 27th of May sounds good to me. I wonder where the old group met? Is there a historian on the list? Maybe we should start again there. NIge On 06/05/2008, Lyle wrote: > Hi All, > It's only been a week and things have been moving forward. There are > several new members, some have posted, others are lurking (don't be > afraid to introduce yourselves). The site is looking a little better... > Still could do with more people to go on the 'People' page (nudge, nudge). > > Think it could be time to start planning a meet. I was thinking a > Tuesday, possibly 27th? Who's up for it and who's from where (trying to > gage Bristol or Bath pub). > > > Also as I've been searching around contacting people and promoting the > group, the thought occurred that local Perl jobs could be posted here. I > see this as potentially being a very good thing, encouraging Perl > programmers and Perl companies to be on this list. Thoughts on this? > > > > Lyle > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com Wed May 7 09:40:20 2008 From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 09:40:20 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] List Update References: <4820BF2C.3050203@cosmicperl.com> <50fec4060805062346y61923f52v99b27cbaf379589@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080507/8d6e0142/attachment.pl From jamesbewley at gmail.com Wed May 7 09:42:58 2008 From: jamesbewley at gmail.com (James Bewley) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 09:42:58 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Starting on the right foot Message-ID: Hi all, Firstly I'd like to thank Lyle for starting the list and making sure everyone in adjacent communities have a very bad impression of perl (the bristol lug) and the B&Bpm (london pm and bristol lug). I'm impressed with how Lyle managed to make the introduction of a perl mongers group all about one person with his narcissism. I think others in this comunity are going to have to come forward to re-build the bridges. Not blaming Lyle completly for the disputes that have occured recently, as there are other people out there that clearly just love to troll. Most internet users Anyway with that said, whats everyone up to and what plans do people have for the Bristol&Bath PM? James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080507/758ecd5a/attachment.html From robingarthedwards at googlemail.com Wed May 7 09:49:49 2008 From: robingarthedwards at googlemail.com (Rob Edwards) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 09:49:49 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] List Update In-Reply-To: References: <4820BF2C.3050203@cosmicperl.com> <50fec4060805062346y61923f52v99b27cbaf379589@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I could make it there, so long as its after 6:30 pm. Rob 2008/5/7 Peter Haworth : > On Wed, 7 May 2008 07:46:35 +0100, nigel at turbo10.com wrote: > > On 06/05/2008, Lyle wrote: > > > > Think it could be time to start planning a meet. I was thinking a > > > Tuesday, possibly 27th? Who's up for it and who's from where > > > (trying to gage Bristol or Bath pub). > > > > > 27th of May sounds good to me. > > > > I wonder where the old group met? > > > > Is there a historian on the list? Maybe we should start again there. > > The only meeting that Bristol.pm managed was in the Reckless Engineer. > I can certainly manage to get there on the 27th, as it's very close to > where I work. Bath is no good for me for the next few weeks, but > meetings should probably alternate between Bristol and Bath. I don't > know where Bath.pm used to meet, though. > > -- > Peter Haworth pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com > "I would never use an emoticon. > I would rather unleash a pestilence upon Israel." > -- Greg Harper > > > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > -- Aviation Briefing Limited The Old Library 6 Linden Road Clevedon BS21 7SN VAT Reg No: 737 1220 56 AvBrief is the trading name of Aviation Briefing Limited Aviation Briefing Limited is a company registered in England and Wales Company No: 3709975 Registered Office: Glen Yeo House, Station Road, Congresbury, North Somerset BS49 5DY From something at amias.org.uk Wed May 7 10:55:51 2008 From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer) Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 10:55:51 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] List Update In-Reply-To: References: <4820BF2C.3050203@cosmicperl.com> <50fec4060805062346y61923f52v99b27cbaf379589@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1210154151.6721.9.camel@home> On Wed, 2008-05-07 at 09:40 +0100, Peter Haworth wrote: > > Is there a historian on the list? Maybe we should start again there. > > The only meeting that Bristol.pm managed was in the Reckless Engineer. > I can certainly manage to get there on the 27th, as it's very close to > where I work. Bath is no good for me for the next few weeks, but > meetings should probably alternate between Bristol and Bath. I don't > know where Bath.pm used to meet, though. Bath.pm used to meet in the bell on walcot street . It has free wifi , excellent beer and plenty of space. We haven't had a bath.pm meet for years so any reasons for a particular date will probably not be meaningful anymore. I like the idea of alternating the meetings between bath and bristol. Toodle-pip Amias -- Freelance programming , consultancy and hardware builds blog.amias.org.uk * www.amias.org.uk * www.ecotalk.org.uk From nigel at turbo10.com Wed May 7 11:16:55 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (nigel at turbo10.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 11:16:55 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] List Update In-Reply-To: <1210154151.6721.9.camel@home> References: <4820BF2C.3050203@cosmicperl.com> <50fec4060805062346y61923f52v99b27cbaf379589@mail.gmail.com> <1210154151.6721.9.camel@home> Message-ID: <50fec4060805070316r444d004ft101919b4d183eaf9@mail.gmail.com> HI Amias, Being in Bath I like the idea of alternating too ;-). The Bell on Walcot street sounds like a good plan. But I'd suggest for the first month we meet in Bristol on the 27th and then we could swap to Bath for the next month. Nige On 07/05/2008, Amias Channer wrote: > On Wed, 2008-05-07 at 09:40 +0100, Peter Haworth wrote: > > > > Is there a historian on the list? Maybe we should start again there. > > > > The only meeting that Bristol.pm managed was in the Reckless Engineer. > > I can certainly manage to get there on the 27th, as it's very close to > > where I work. Bath is no good for me for the next few weeks, but > > meetings should probably alternate between Bristol and Bath. I don't > > know where Bath.pm used to meet, though. > > Bath.pm used to meet in the bell on walcot street . It has free wifi > , excellent beer and plenty of space. > > We haven't had a bath.pm meet for years so any reasons for a > particular date will probably not be meaningful anymore. > > I like the idea of alternating the meetings between bath and bristol. > > Toodle-pip > Amias > -- > Freelance programming , consultancy and hardware builds > blog.amias.org.uk * www.amias.org.uk * www.ecotalk.org.uk > > > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Wed May 7 11:28:58 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 11:28:58 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Starting on the right foot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4821846A.3030603@cosmicperl.com> James Bewley wrote: > Hi all, > > Firstly I'd like to thank Lyle for starting the list Thank you. > the bristol lug I suggested our meet date as it is purposely after the LUG meet, I'm going to pop over there, face to face things are always a lot easier. > as there are other people out there that clearly just love to troll. > Unfortunately so. At least trolling is banned here so we won't have to put up with it. Our list is growing, we've had some good posts. I had an email from brian d foy yesterday with regards the group and the Perl review so hopefully we'll get another plug there. I wouldn't let some trolls on other lists concern you, it's far to early days. We're doing well. Lyle From jamesbewley at gmail.com Wed May 7 11:56:05 2008 From: jamesbewley at gmail.com (James Bewley) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 11:56:05 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] List Update In-Reply-To: <50fec4060805070316r444d004ft101919b4d183eaf9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4820BF2C.3050203@cosmicperl.com> <50fec4060805062346y61923f52v99b27cbaf379589@mail.gmail.com> <1210154151.6721.9.camel@home> <50fec4060805070316r444d004ft101919b4d183eaf9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: May i suggest the Watershed as a meeting venue, it's got lots of space, power, wifi and good beer. It may be a little further for the guys from Bath to walk, assuming they are coming in via bristol temple meads, but well worth it i think. James 2008/5/7 : > HI Amias, > > Being in Bath I like the idea of alternating too ;-). The Bell > on Walcot street sounds like a good plan. But I'd suggest for the > first month we meet in Bristol on the 27th and then we could swap to > Bath for the next month. > > Nige > > On 07/05/2008, Amias Channer wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-05-07 at 09:40 +0100, Peter Haworth wrote: > > > > > > Is there a historian on the list? Maybe we should start again there. > > > > > > The only meeting that Bristol.pm managed was in the Reckless Engineer. > > > I can certainly manage to get there on the 27th, as it's very close to > > > where I work. Bath is no good for me for the next few weeks, but > > > meetings should probably alternate between Bristol and Bath. I don't > > > know where Bath.pm used to meet, though. > > > > Bath.pm used to meet in the bell on walcot street . It has free wifi > > , excellent beer and plenty of space. > > > > We haven't had a bath.pm meet for years so any reasons for a > > particular date will probably not be meaningful anymore. > > > > I like the idea of alternating the meetings between bath and bristol. > > > > Toodle-pip > > Amias > > -- > > Freelance programming , consultancy and hardware builds > > blog.amias.org.uk * www.amias.org.uk * www.ecotalk.org.uk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BristolBathPM mailing list > > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > > > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080507/d246eb58/attachment-0001.html From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Wed May 7 13:33:15 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 13:33:15 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] We're on The Perl Community AdServer Message-ID: <4821A18B.5060507@cosmicperl.com> Hi All, We are now on the The Perl Community AdServer so you'll probably notice our link appearing on all sorts of Perl sites :) I've also been talking to some of the people at UWE... so hopefully that'll lead to good things... Does anyone have a contact at Bristol Uni? Lyle From jamesbewley at gmail.com Wed May 7 13:53:38 2008 From: jamesbewley at gmail.com (James Bewley) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 13:53:38 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] We're on The Perl Community AdServer In-Reply-To: <4821A18B.5060507@cosmicperl.com> References: <4821A18B.5060507@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: > > I've also been talking to some of the people at UWE... so hopefully > that'll lead to good things... Who's the contact at UWE? I'm currently associated with UWE at the moment, as is at least one other member of the list (Rob). James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080507/9a61eaaa/attachment.html From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Wed May 7 17:30:45 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 17:30:45 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] List Update In-Reply-To: <50fec4060805070316r444d004ft101919b4d183eaf9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4820BF2C.3050203@cosmicperl.com> <50fec4060805062346y61923f52v99b27cbaf379589@mail.gmail.com> <1210154151.6721.9.camel@home> <50fec4060805070316r444d004ft101919b4d183eaf9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4821D935.1080103@cosmicperl.com> nigel at turbo10.com wrote: > HI Amias, > > Being in Bath I like the idea of alternating too ;-). The Bell > on Walcot street sounds like a good plan. But I'd suggest for the > first month we meet in Bristol on the 27th and then we could swap to > Bath for the next month. > > Nige > I agree. I'll check out the suggested Bristol venues this week so I know what we are looking at. Does anyone have any good camel stuff so people can quickly see where we're sat? Otherwise it'll be me sat there with a copy of Programming Perl on the table :\ Lyle From robingarthedwards at googlemail.com Fri May 9 09:11:24 2008 From: robingarthedwards at googlemail.com (Rob Edwards) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 09:11:24 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] nordic perl workshop Message-ID: http://conferences.yapceurope.org/npw2008/ I am going, anyone else? Rob From nigel at turbo10.com Fri May 9 09:40:20 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (nigel at turbo10.com) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 09:40:20 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] nordic perl workshop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50fec4060805090140h12aa3603yb5db9d7327c0fec6@mail.gmail.com> I'm very tempted to go but can't spare the time. I'll be definitely going to the YAPC::EU conference later in the year though. NIge On 09/05/2008, Rob Edwards wrote: > http://conferences.yapceurope.org/npw2008/ > > I am going, anyone else? > > Rob > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Fri May 9 12:39:03 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 12:39:03 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] We're on The Perl Community AdServer In-Reply-To: References: <4821A18B.5060507@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <482437D7.2070409@cosmicperl.com> James Bewley wrote: > > > I've also been talking to some of the people at UWE... so hopefully > that'll lead to good things... > > > Who's the contact at UWE? > I'm currently associated with UWE at the moment, as is at least one > other member of the list (Rob). > > > James > I spoke to Chris Wallace on the phone a couple of days ago, and just had an email from Julia Dawson today. Hopefully this'll lead to some good things. If you could get your contacts to see if anyone over there using Perl would join our list that would be a really good thing. Having people there talk about us could create a nice 'Buzz'. Lyle From nigel at turbo10.com Fri May 9 12:50:11 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 12:50:11 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] RSS Feed Actions Message-ID: <50fec4060805090450s3473c57n6e380092551c46b8@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I'm designing a way of taking actions in response to 'events' (e.g., commit, email, shell commands, chat messages etc). The events can be published via RSS but I would also like a way of publishing actions that go with them. I've checked out RSS and Atom but it seems the actions are added in ad hoc way as embedded HTML forms. Does anyone know of an upcoming standard for this type of thing? I'm happy to go with embedded HTML forms but I was wondering if there is a better way? Nige -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080509/1a93861f/attachment.html From rob at avbrief.com Fri May 9 13:01:30 2008 From: rob at avbrief.com (Rob Edwards) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 13:01:30 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] RSS Feed Actions In-Reply-To: <50fec4060805090450s3473c57n6e380092551c46b8@mail.gmail.com> References: <50fec4060805090450s3473c57n6e380092551c46b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: How are you storing your actions and events? Rob 2008/5/9 Nigel Hamilton : > Hi, > > I'm designing a way of taking actions in response to 'events' (e.g., > commit, email, shell commands, chat messages etc). The events can be > published via RSS but I would also like a way of publishing actions that go > with them. I've checked out RSS and Atom but it seems the actions are added > in ad hoc way as embedded HTML forms. Does anyone know of an upcoming > standard for this type of thing? I'm happy to go with embedded HTML forms > but I was wondering if there is a better way? > > Nige > > > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > > -- Aviation Briefing Limited The Old Library 6 Linden Road Clevedon BS21 7SN VAT Reg No: 737 1220 56 AvBrief is the trading name of Aviation Briefing Limited Aviation Briefing Limited is a company registered in England and Wales Company No: 3709975 Registered Office: Glen Yeo House, Station Road, Congresbury, North Somerset BS49 5DY From something at amias.org.uk Fri May 9 13:22:58 2008 From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 13:22:58 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] RSS Feed Actions In-Reply-To: <50fec4060805090450s3473c57n6e380092551c46b8@mail.gmail.com> References: <50fec4060805090450s3473c57n6e380092551c46b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1210335778.6282.8.camel@home> On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 12:50 +0100, Nigel Hamilton wrote: > Hi, > > I'm designing a way of taking actions in response to > 'events' (e.g., commit, email, shell commands, chat messages etc). The > events can be published via RSS but I would also like a way of > publishing actions that go with them. I've checked out RSS and Atom > but it seems the actions are added in ad hoc way as embedded HTML > forms. Does anyone know of an upcoming standard for this type of > thing? I'm happy to go with embedded HTML forms but I was wondering if > there is a better way? maybe SOAP , REST or POE ? Toodle-pip Amias -- Freelance programming , consultancy and hardware builds blog.amias.org.uk * www.amias.org.uk * www.ecotalk.org.uk From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Fri May 9 19:20:39 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 19:20:39 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members Message-ID: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> Hi All, I can see from the list manager we've had another 4 new members in the last couple of days... Don't be afraid to introduce yourself :) Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Fri May 9 19:30:03 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 19:30:03 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Updating MySQL database calls to work with MSSQL and SQLite Message-ID: <4824982B.4010603@cosmicperl.com> Hi All, This last week I've overhauled a load of database routines grouping methods into easy to use objects. All the routines are currently MySQL based. My future plans are to have MSSQL, SQLite and maybe PostgreSQL as database options. My current experience is with MySQL only. Does anyone know of any good resources for doing this? I'm guessing the syntax for creating tables, etc, will be different for each. But most of the SQL queries will be the same?? Am I safe to assume this or am I going to hit some real problems? Lyle From david at cantrell.org.uk Fri May 9 20:31:18 2008 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 20:31:18 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Updating MySQL database calls to work with MSSQL and SQLite In-Reply-To: <4824982B.4010603@cosmicperl.com> References: <4824982B.4010603@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <20080509193118.GA9400@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> hi, my name's Dave and I'm one of the London.pm cabal On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 07:30:03PM +0100, Lyle wrote: > This last week I've overhauled a load of database routines grouping > methods into easy to use objects. All the routines are currently MySQL > based. My future plans are to have MSSQL, SQLite and maybe PostgreSQL as > database options. > > My current experience is with MySQL only. Does anyone know of any good > resources for doing this? Class::DBI or DBIx::Class. Personally I prefer Class::DBI but its internals are nasty and DBIx::Class seems to have more active development going on these days. They both provide a reasonably clean objecty abstraction for databases so you won't need to worry about the slight differences in syntax - although of course you are also largely confined to functionality that they share in common. That means no fancy tricks with triggers or stored procedures, although they both let you define pseudo-triggers in perl - handy if you're using an old version of MySQL, or need to do more in a trigger than SQLite can support. > I'm guessing the syntax for creating tables, etc, will be different for > each. Neither of the modules helps with that anyway, although the syntax should be mostly the same - CREATE TABLE is defined as part of the SQL standard. Where you'll find differences are in some of the extended datatypes (PostgreSQL is a particular offender here) which aren't supported everywhere, and in the non-standard methods that all databases use for doing things like telling the storage engine where to put the data and (in some cases) what format to use (eg MyISAM vs InnoDB for MySQL). -- David Cantrell | Hero of the Information Age From paulm at paulm.com Sat May 10 01:07:00 2008 From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 01:07:00 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Updating MySQL database calls to work with MSSQL and SQLite In-Reply-To: <4824982B.4010603@cosmicperl.com> References: <4824982B.4010603@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:30 PM, Lyle wrote: > Hi All, > This last week I've overhauled a load of database routines grouping > methods into easy to use objects. All the routines are currently MySQL > based. My future plans are to have MSSQL, SQLite and maybe PostgreSQL as > database options. Out of curiosity, what's your goal with this? There's no shame in picking one technology and sticking with it, to the exclusion of others: you can simplify your codebase, reduce maintenance effort, and generally get on with life in other areas. If your goal is to produce a generally accessible library that's DB-agnostic, that's a noble goal, but usually quite aside from a typical business objective. P > > My current experience is with MySQL only. Does anyone know of any good > resources for doing this? > > I'm guessing the syntax for creating tables, etc, will be different for > each. But most of the SQL queries will be the same?? Am I safe to assume > this or am I going to hit some real problems? > > > Lyle > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > From mhsparks at gmail.com Sat May 10 10:19:21 2008 From: mhsparks at gmail.com (Mark Hughes) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 10:19:21 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Updating MySQL database calls to work with MSSQL and SQLite In-Reply-To: <20080509193118.GA9400@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <4824982B.4010603@cosmicperl.com> <20080509193118.GA9400@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 8:31 PM, David Cantrell wrote: > hi, my name's Dave and I'm one of the London.pm cabal > I'm Mark, and actually work in Bristol - though am familiar with many of this London.pm cabal through lurking on their list (though to be fair I was living in the smoke at the time) > On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 07:30:03PM +0100, Lyle wrote: > >> This last week I've overhauled a load of database routines grouping >> methods into easy to use objects. All the routines are currently MySQL >> based. My future plans are to have MSSQL, SQLite and maybe PostgreSQL as >> database options. >> >> My current experience is with MySQL only. Does anyone know of any good >> resources for doing this? > > Class::DBI or DBIx::Class. Personally I prefer Class::DBI but its > internals are nasty and DBIx::Class seems to have more active > development going on these days. They both provide a reasonably clean > objecty abstraction for databases so you won't need to worry about the > slight differences in syntax - although of course you are also largely > confined to functionality that they share in common. That means no > fancy tricks with triggers or stored procedures, although they both let > you define pseudo-triggers in perl - handy if you're using an old > version of MySQL, or need to do more in a trigger than SQLite can > support. > We've been using Class::DBI on our application for the last 4 years or so and it's a joy to write code without worrying about the underlying SQL. Some of the changes broke our (admittedly, rather specialised) app so we've stuck with Class::DBI::Frozen::301 from 2005. If I was starting again I'd take a serious look at DBIx::Class and Rose-DB as well. As Dave says, both are far more actively developed than Class::DBI . One thing I like about Class::DBI is the ability to easily fall back to raw DBI / SQL when necessary. Sometimes, creating hundreds of Perl objects from a big select isn't an option for performance reasons and bulk updates / inserts often need database specific calls. If database independence is a concern, then you might need to look at creating a package per database for any db specific queries that are needed for performance reasons. Mark. From alex at alexfrancis.org.uk Sat May 10 10:49:03 2008 From: alex at alexfrancis.org.uk (Alex Francis) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 10:49:03 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <16afc9550805100249m118105d8ifbf9fbc95a3d0cb2@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:20 PM, Lyle wrote: > Hi All, > I can see from the list manager we've had another 4 new members in the > last couple of days... > > Don't be afraid to introduce yourself :) > > > Lyle OK... in mastermind style, I am Alex Francis, a perl programmer working for IMDb in Bristol. I used to work at Sift and I think I'm the fourth perl person to move from Sift to IMDb. I'm into perl best practices, tdd and writing perl that's easy to read, instead of blinding people with awesomely clever line-noise. I find perl's lack of "one true way" of doing OO a bit of a PITA, but hey it makes life interesting. Alex From setheridge at blueyonder.co.uk Sat May 10 10:02:46 2008 From: setheridge at blueyonder.co.uk (setheridge at blueyonder.co.uk) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 10:02:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <1399.82.46.18.207.1210410166.V1RGAGgAQEp/.squirrel@82.46.18.207> Hi all Not a new member as I was carried over from the old list but I have been using Perl for a few years now mainly in text analysis, but also in writing utilities, eg a Stellant website configurer that took a spreadsheet model of a website and created the Stellant files, which saved some thousand manhours allegedly! I also own two Perl t-shirts: "If you programmed in Perl you would be home by now" and "Zen and the art of Perl". Steve > Hi All, > I can see from the list manager we've had another 4 new members in the > last couple of days... > > Don't be afraid to introduce yourself :) > > > Lyle > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > > From robingarthedwards at googlemail.com Sat May 10 16:58:53 2008 From: robingarthedwards at googlemail.com (Rob Edwards) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 16:58:53 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: <1399.82.46.18.207.1210410166.V1RGAGgAQEp/.squirrel@82.46.18.207> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> <1399.82.46.18.207.1210410166.V1RGAGgAQEp/.squirrel@82.46.18.207> Message-ID: > "If you programmed in Perl you would be home by now" and Haha I want one!! Rob From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Sat May 10 18:23:06 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 18:23:06 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Updating MySQL database calls to work with MSSQL and SQLite In-Reply-To: References: <4824982B.4010603@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <4825D9FA.9080700@cosmicperl.com> Paul Makepeace wrote: > On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:30 PM, Lyle wrote: > >> Hi All, >> This last week I've overhauled a load of database routines grouping >> methods into easy to use objects. All the routines are currently MySQL >> based. My future plans are to have MSSQL, SQLite and maybe PostgreSQL as >> database options. >> > > > Out of curiosity, what's your goal with this? > > There's no shame in picking one technology and sticking with it, to > the exclusion of others: you can simplify your codebase, reduce > maintenance effort, and generally get on with life in other areas. > My software ends up on a wide variety of hosts, Linux, BSD, Windoze, you name it. A lot of my customers are on shared hosting where they generally aren't in a position to add new perl modules or server features. Some of the Windoze shared hosting will only have MSSQL available, so I'm missing out on them (although they don't always have perl available, or the Perl DBI and ODBC modules available). With large windoze customers on dedicated box's I get a lot of, "We want to keep all our databases on MSSQL", it can be hard enough to get them to put Perl on, forcing them to install MySQL just means more people drop off... SQLite... well I only read up on it recently and it looks like fun :) Although the thought of having to re-write whole tables and move the data across to remove a column doesn't :\ > If your goal is to produce a generally accessible library that's > DB-agnostic, that's a noble goal, but usually quite aside from a > typical business objective. > Hmm... I remember I did write a module a few years ago that took the MySQL create tables SQL and turned into MSSQL create tables syntax, but I'm not sure if that's the way forward... If you've read our (my) projects page you'll notice "Portable module collection", I'd be temped to make some pure Perl database modules people could use... By the way if anyone has a project idea you think would be good for us to do as a group then please put your suggestions forward and I'll put them on the projects page. Although I'm not sure what namespace these modules would go in as Adam Kennedy has plans for the "Portable:: namespace... David Cantrell wrote: > hi, my name's Dave and I'm one of the London.pm cabal Ahh... part of the "evil uber-geek cabal" as Jonathan Stowe recently put it. I'm Lyle the "Athleek" (I know you've been waiting of me to say that Dave) who's been spending about 3 hours a day working on and promoting this group. > Class::DBI or DBIx::Class. Personally I prefer Class::DBI but its > internals are nasty and DBIx::Class seems to have more active... Interesting. But for my purposes I generally try to stick to pure Perl modules so that I can guarantee that my shared hosting customers can use my scripts (just uploading additional modules by FTP). Obviously I try to code my stuff to see if any faster XS libraries are already available before using the pure Perl ones. Strangely enough that brings me on to the CPAN dependencies lookup feature... Can't for the life of me remember who maintains that :P It would be REALLY useful if it showed which dependencies were pure Perl and which used XS and alike. Would certainly save me a lot of time tracking down a modules dependencies to see if it's all pure Perl and suits my purposes ;) >> I'm guessing the syntax for creating tables, etc, will be different for >> each. >> > > Neither of the modules helps with that anyway, although the syntax > should be mostly the same - CREATE TABLE is defined as part of the SQL > standard. Where you'll find differences are in some of the extended > datatypes (PostgreSQL is a particular offender here) which aren't > supported everywhere, and in the non-standard methods that all databases > use for doing things like telling the storage engine where to put the > data and (in some cases) what format to use (eg MyISAM vs InnoDB for > MySQL). > Hmmm... so maybe my old module would be worth maintaining... Mark Hughes wrote: > I'm Mark, and actually work in Bristol - though am familiar > with many of this London.pm cabal through lurking on their list > (though to be fair I was living in the smoke at the time) > Hi Mark, welcome to the list. I hope you can make it to our first meet :) > We've been using Class::DBI on our application for the last 4 years or > so and it's a joy to write code without worrying about the underlying > SQL. Some of the changes broke our (admittedly, rather specialised) > app so we've stuck with Class::DBI::Frozen::301 from 2005. > > If I was starting again I'd take a serious look at DBIx::Class and > Rose-DB as well. As Dave says, both are far more actively developed > than Class::DBI . > From having a quick look it seems like I'd prefer Class::DBI as the only dependency I've noticed so far that isn't pure Perl is Clone.pm, and I know there is a pure Perl clone so I might be able to mod it to be pure Perl... Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Sat May 10 18:30:34 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 18:30:34 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: <16afc9550805100249m118105d8ifbf9fbc95a3d0cb2@mail.gmail.com> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> <16afc9550805100249m118105d8ifbf9fbc95a3d0cb2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4825DBBA.6060503@cosmicperl.com> Alex Francis wrote: > On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:20 PM, Lyle wrote: > >> Hi All, >> I can see from the list manager we've had another 4 new members in the >> last couple of days... >> >> Don't be afraid to introduce yourself :) >> >> >> Lyle >> > > OK... in mastermind style, I am Alex Francis, a perl programmer > working for IMDb in Bristol. > Great to hear from you. Did you get the email I sent to IMDb? I saw their Bristol Perl job posting and fired an email across about our group. Out of interest, where abouts in Bristol are the IMDb offices? > I used to work at Sift and I think I'm the fourth perl person to move > from Sift to IMDb. > I contacted Sift some time back to try and get the old Bristol.pm list. They ran MajorDomo on their own servers (you probably already know that). They said they'd try and find the old list but I'm not sure if they actually looked. If you have a contact there it would be great to add the old bristol.pm list to this one. > I'm into perl best practices, tdd and writing perl that's easy to > read, instead of blinding people with awesomely clever line-noise. I > find perl's lack of "one true way" of doing OO a bit of a PITA, but > hey it makes life interesting. > That's the way I try to code as well. I'd rather have some spaced out and commented foreach loops that are easy for people to read and understand, than a great long line of nested grep, map, etc. > Alex > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > > From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Sat May 10 18:33:08 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 18:33:08 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: <1399.82.46.18.207.1210410166.V1RGAGgAQEp/.squirrel@82.46.18.207> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> <1399.82.46.18.207.1210410166.V1RGAGgAQEp/.squirrel@82.46.18.207> Message-ID: <4825DC54.8020307@cosmicperl.com> setheridge at blueyonder.co.uk wrote: > Hi all > > Not a new member as I was carried over from the old list but I have been > using Perl for a few years now mainly in text analysis, but also in > writing utilities, eg a Stellant website configurer that took a > spreadsheet model of a website and created the Stellant files, which saved > some thousand manhours allegedly! > I also own two Perl t-shirts: > "If you programmed in Perl you would be home by now" and > "Zen and the art of Perl". > > Steve > Hi Steve, Welcome to the list! Or welcome back... However you want to see it :) Hope you can make it to our first meet. Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Sat May 10 18:35:32 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 18:35:32 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] People page Was: New Members In-Reply-To: <16afc9550805100249m118105d8ifbf9fbc95a3d0cb2@mail.gmail.com> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> <16afc9550805100249m118105d8ifbf9fbc95a3d0cb2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4825DCE4.1080306@cosmicperl.com> For those who just introduced yourselves, send me a private email and let me know if you're happy for me to add you to the people page. Photos of yourselves would be greatly appreciated! Lyle From alex at alexfrancis.org.uk Sat May 10 19:51:46 2008 From: alex at alexfrancis.org.uk (Alex Francis) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 19:51:46 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: <4825DBBA.6060503@cosmicperl.com> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> <16afc9550805100249m118105d8ifbf9fbc95a3d0cb2@mail.gmail.com> <4825DBBA.6060503@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <16afc9550805101151v1787a019w75baf27bc5da8d43@mail.gmail.com> On 5/10/08, Lyle wrote: > Great to hear from you. Did you get the email I sent to IMDb? I saw > their Bristol Perl job posting and fired an email across about our > group. Out of interest, where abouts in Bristol are the IMDb offices? > Yes, someone passed it on to me - reminded me to take a look, had been meaning to get involved for a few months if not years. No offices - we work from home. > I contacted Sift some time back to try and get the old Bristol.pm list. > They ran MajorDomo on their own servers (you probably already know > that). They said they'd try and find the old list but I'm not sure if > they actually looked. If you have a contact there it would be great to > add the old bristol.pm list to this one. > I do have contacts there still. I'm not sure anyone is still there who was around when the Bristol.pm stuff was set up, but I'll make enquiries. You're just after the list of people/email addresses, right? In any case, since you posted to [_] and lots of other places, I should think anyone who's gonna be interested will already know about it. Alex From danbri at danbri.org Sat May 10 21:20:30 2008 From: danbri at danbri.org (Dan Brickley) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 21:20:30 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <4826038E.9000509@danbri.org> Lyle wrote: > Hi All, > I can see from the list manager we've had another 4 new members in the > last couple of days... > > Don't be afraid to introduce yourself :) Hi Lyle, everyone, I've been making things with Perl, on and off, since I got a job as a webmaster in '95 and had to mangle data into Web pages in a hurry. And at same time found myself working with Java, eventually stumbling into Ruby where the Perl and Java parts of my brain reached some kind of happy scruffy compromise. But there's more than one way to do it, etc etc and I'm still plenty fond of Perl, and interested to know more about what folks around here have been building, regardless of their language of choice. I'm mostly a Web standards and metadata person (ex-W3C, where I helped start the Semantic Web project, and worked on the RDF specs). So I'm extra-interested in topics around data sharing, aggregation/syndication etc. Most recently I was working at the Internet-TV startup Joost, where I was finally persuaded of the charms of Javascript. And since the start of the year I've dropped all that and I'm playing around with my long-neglected FOAF project again, since social network data mobility is all the rage. Uhm, that'll do for intros. More blahblah in my homepage/and blog via http://danbri.org/ (also 'danbri' on twitter, flickr and various others) cheers, Dan ps. ah yeah, I'm Bristol-based (and have been since coming here for university in '91; it's a sticky city...) -- http://danbri.org/ From david at cantrell.org.uk Sat May 10 21:58:00 2008 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 21:58:00 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Updating MySQL database calls to work with MSSQL and SQLite In-Reply-To: <4825D9FA.9080700@cosmicperl.com> References: <4824982B.4010603@cosmicperl.com> <4825D9FA.9080700@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <20080510205800.GD25443@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 06:23:06PM +0100, Lyle wrote: > My software ends up on a wide variety of hosts, Linux, BSD, Windoze, you > name it. A lot of my customers are on shared hosting where they > generally aren't in a position to add new perl modules or server > features. They can upload modules to sub-directories under their cgi-bin (or similar) and use them, provided they just 'use lib qw(blah)' first. > David Cantrell wrote: > > Class::DBI or DBIx::Class. Personally I prefer Class::DBI but its > > internals are nasty and DBIx::Class seems to have more active... > Interesting. But for my purposes I generally try to stick to pure Perl > modules ... I *think* that DBIx::Class itself is pure perl - at least, the MANIFEST doesn't contain any .xs or .c files. And DBI comes with DBI::PurePerl. I've not checked its other dependencies. The problem will be finding a pure perl DBD. Off the top of my head the only ones are AnyData, RAM, and CSV. None of which are much help with talking to a real database! OTOH, it's not too unreasonable to expect that a hostingco that has installed MySQL and perl will have also installed DBD::Mysql, and one that has installed perl on Windows will normally have Win32::* intsalled and perhaps some ODBC modules. > Strangely enough that brings me on to the CPAN dependencies lookup > feature... Can't for the life of me remember who maintains that :P > It would be REALLY useful if it showed which dependencies were pure Perl > and which used XS and alike. It could only ever be a heuristic, of course, but does this sound like a close enough approximation? A module (actually a distribution) is pure perl if: it contains no .c, .h or .xs files; and it doesn't depend on Inline::C or: it contains a /pureperl/i file I'd look filenames up in the MANIFEST files on search.cpan.org. The extra fetch needed from seaerch.cpan and all the extra checks would make it quite a bit slower, so this would have to be an option that you have to turn on yourself. And of course if a module is available in the same distribution in both C-ish and pure perl versions, I won't be able to tell from the test results whether it'll actually work for you. This definitely sounds like a good feature to add. [scribble scribble] there, added to the TODO list. Of course, it'll get done faster if you can supply a patch :-) The CVS repository is here: http://drhyde.cvs.sourceforge.net/drhyde/perlcpandeps/ -- David Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive Arbeit macht Alkoholiker From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Sat May 10 22:32:14 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 22:32:14 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: <16afc9550805101151v1787a019w75baf27bc5da8d43@mail.gmail.com> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> <16afc9550805100249m118105d8ifbf9fbc95a3d0cb2@mail.gmail.com> <4825DBBA.6060503@cosmicperl.com> <16afc9550805101151v1787a019w75baf27bc5da8d43@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4826145E.8060001@cosmicperl.com> Alex Francis wrote: > On 5/10/08, Lyle wrote: > >> I contacted Sift some time back to try and get the old Bristol.pm list. >> They ran MajorDomo on their own servers (you probably already know >> that). They said they'd try and find the old list but I'm not sure if >> they actually looked. If you have a contact there it would be great to >> add the old bristol.pm list to this one. >> >> > > I do have contacts there still. I'm not sure anyone is still there who > was around when the Bristol.pm stuff was set up, but I'll make > enquiries. You're just after the list of people/email addresses, > right? In any case, since you posted to [_] and lots of other places, > I should think anyone who's gonna be interested will already know > about it Yeah just the names and emails. I think we've already got a lot of the local Perl people, I hope to get the rest of them in the next couple of months and then push forward to converting people or getting young wannabe programmers into Perl. Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Sat May 10 22:45:52 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 22:45:52 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: <4826038E.9000509@danbri.org> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> <4826038E.9000509@danbri.org> Message-ID: <48261790.80709@cosmicperl.com> Dan Brickley wrote: > Lyle wrote: > >> Hi All, >> I can see from the list manager we've had another 4 new members in the >> last couple of days... >> >> Don't be afraid to introduce yourself :) >> > > Hi Lyle, everyone, > Welcome to the list! > I've been making things with Perl, on and off, since I got a job as a > webmaster in '95 and had to mangle data into Web pages in a hurry. Sounds familiar :) > But there's more than one way to do it, etc > etc and I'm still plenty fond of Perl, and interested to know more about > what folks around here have been building, regardless of their language > of choice. > My main project is affiliate tracking, but I do a few other things here and there. > I'm mostly a Web standards and metadata person (ex-W3C, where I helped > start the Semantic Web project, and worked on the RDF specs). That sounds cool. > So I'm extra-interested in topics around data sharing, aggregation/syndication > etc. > All the Perl people seem to rave about YAML these days. Can't say I've had chance to use it yet, but I plan to. > ps. ah yeah, I'm Bristol-based (and have been since coming here for > university in '91; it's a sticky city...) > Do you still have some computing contacts at Bristol Uni? It would be great if we could have some kind of link there. I've made some small progress contacting people at UWE, but haven't even spoken to anyone at Bristol Uni. Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Sat May 10 23:22:34 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 23:22:34 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Updating MySQL database calls to work with MSSQL and SQLite In-Reply-To: <20080510205800.GD25443@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <4824982B.4010603@cosmicperl.com> <4825D9FA.9080700@cosmicperl.com> <20080510205800.GD25443@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <4826202A.1080002@cosmicperl.com> David Cantrell wrote: > They can upload modules to sub-directories under their cgi-bin (or > similar) and use them, provided they just 'use lib qw(blah)' first. > Lol, I am aware of this :) > OTOH, it's not too unreasonable to expect > that a hostingco that has installed MySQL and perl will have also > installed DBD::Mysql, and one that has installed perl on Windows will > normally have Win32::* intsalled and perhaps some ODBC modules. > More to the point I demand it! It's very frustrating when your client is with a host that advertises that they have Perl and MySQL, but don't have the DBI or DBD::mysql modules installed. Thankfully it's getting less and less common, but I still come across them now and again. To pick on a big one FastHosts have a habit of not having the Perl modules they advertise they have and unlike most the others hosts I've found they are impossible to work with, and refuse to sort things like that out. > It could only ever be a heuristic, of course, but does this sound like a > close enough approximation? > > A module (actually a distribution) is pure perl if: > it contains no .c, .h or .xs files; > and it doesn't depend on Inline::C > or: > it contains a /pureperl/i file > > I'd look filenames up in the MANIFEST files on search.cpan.org. The > extra fetch needed from seaerch.cpan and all the extra checks would make > it quite a bit slower, so this would have to be an option that you have > to turn on yourself. > > And of course if a module is available in the same distribution in both > C-ish and pure perl versions, I won't be able to tell from the test > results whether it'll actually work for you. > > This definitely sounds like a good feature to add. [scribble scribble] > there, added to the TODO list. Of course, it'll get done faster if you > can supply a patch :-) The CVS repository is here: > http://drhyde.cvs.sourceforge.net/drhyde/perlcpandeps/ > > That sounds good. I'm 3 weeks behind on my current project, but once it's out of the way I'll certainly look at supplying a patch. I've got some experience with LWP and some other ideas I could include. Thanks for pointing me to the repository. Lyle From nigel at turbo10.com Sun May 11 11:34:53 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 11:34:53 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] RSS Feed Actions In-Reply-To: References: <50fec4060805090450s3473c57n6e380092551c46b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <50fec4060805110334r121f6993sffff9612ffc9fcc7@mail.gmail.com> How you storing your actions The actions are extracted from perl module files. I use a simple regex introspection method (think PPI-lite) on the source code to extract the web methods that get loaded into a registry. When an action happens it is stored as a 'perceptron' which is a frozen perl object that gets stored into a 'trail' of events and actions of different types (email, chat, shell command etc). Actions land in your personal trail and can link back to the channel where you made it. Why am I doing this? I'm trying to be more productive by minimising context switching and information overload while improving memory and creativity. The perceptrons fall into channels which means you can stay focussed - that's the theory - so far it's been working for me and my small company but I'm planning on sharing the system and RSS is one way to publish the perceptrons.But that's only part of the story -- I also need a way of adding actions and was wondering if there is an standard out there. If not, then HTML forms in the payload of the RSS should work. Nige > > 2008/5/9 Nigel Hamilton : > > Hi, > > > > I'm designing a way of taking actions in response to 'events' (e.g., > > commit, email, shell commands, chat messages etc). The events can be > > published via RSS but I would also like a way of publishing actions that > go > > with them. I've checked out RSS and Atom but it seems the actions are > added > > in ad hoc way as embedded HTML forms. Does anyone know of an upcoming > > standard for this type of thing? I'm happy to go with embedded HTML > forms > > but I was wondering if there is a better way? > > > > Nige > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BristolBathPM mailing list > > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > > > > > > > > -- > Aviation Briefing Limited > > The Old Library > 6 Linden Road > Clevedon > BS21 7SN > > VAT Reg No: 737 1220 56 > > AvBrief is the trading name of Aviation Briefing Limited > > Aviation Briefing Limited is a company registered in England and Wales > > Company No: 3709975 Registered Office: Glen Yeo House, Station Road, > Congresbury, North Somerset BS49 5DY > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080511/c56730e5/attachment.html From paulm at paulm.com Sun May 11 15:03:23 2008 From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace) Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 15:03:23 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] RSS Feed Actions In-Reply-To: <50fec4060805110334r121f6993sffff9612ffc9fcc7@mail.gmail.com> References: <50fec4060805090450s3473c57n6e380092551c46b8@mail.gmail.com> <50fec4060805110334r121f6993sffff9612ffc9fcc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: FWIW, take a look at Google's GData APIs; they're based on Atom and I think provide what you're after: Overview: http://code.google.com/apis/gdata/overview.html Actual example: http://code.google.com/apis/gdata/basics.html Not necessarily to use them but they might give you some ideas of how to encode your actions. That said, if you do want to use them I think Simon Wistow has done some GData stuff with Net::Google::Calendar(?). If you get anything working in Perl I'm definitely interested as I was toying with storing some stuff in a spreadsheet :-) P On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 11:34 AM, Nigel Hamilton wrote: > How you storing your actions > > > > The actions are extracted from perl module files. I use a simple regex introspection method (think PPI-lite) on the source code to extract the web methods that get loaded into a registry. When an action happens it is stored as a 'perceptron' which is a frozen perl object that gets stored into a 'trail' of events and actions of different types (email, chat, shell command etc). Actions land in your personal trail and can link back to the channel where you made it. > > Why am I doing this? I'm trying to be more productive by minimising context switching and information overload while improving memory and creativity. The perceptrons fall into channels which means you can stay focussed - that's the theory - so far it's been working for me and my small company but I'm planning on sharing the system and RSS is one way to publish the perceptrons.But that's only part of the story -- I also need a way of adding actions and was wondering if there is an standard out there. If not, then HTML forms in the payload of the RSS should work. > > Nige > > > > > > > > > > > 2008/5/9 Nigel Hamilton : > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I'm designing a way of taking actions in response to 'events' (e.g., > > > commit, email, shell commands, chat messages etc). The events can be > > > published via RSS but I would also like a way of publishing actions that go > > > with them. I've checked out RSS and Atom but it seems the actions are added > > > in ad hoc way as embedded HTML forms. Does anyone know of an upcoming > > > standard for this type of thing? I'm happy to go with embedded HTML forms > > > but I was wondering if there is a better way? > > > > > > Nige > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > BristolBathPM mailing list > > > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > > > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Aviation Briefing Limited > > > > The Old Library > > 6 Linden Road > > Clevedon > > BS21 7SN > > > > VAT Reg No: 737 1220 56 > > > > AvBrief is the trading name of Aviation Briefing Limited > > > > Aviation Briefing Limited is a company registered in England and Wales > > > > Company No: 3709975 Registered Office: Glen Yeo House, Station Road, > > Congresbury, North Somerset BS49 5DY > > _______________________________________________ > > BristolBathPM mailing list > > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > > From nigel at turbo10.com Mon May 12 07:46:58 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (nigel at turbo10.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 07:46:58 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] RSS Feed Actions In-Reply-To: References: <50fec4060805090450s3473c57n6e380092551c46b8@mail.gmail.com> <50fec4060805110334r121f6993sffff9612ffc9fcc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <50fec4060805112346n51308e0by4048bc6dc7cc83e3@mail.gmail.com> Hi Paul Thanks for the links - much appreciated. It's interesting to see how they have extended atom to include "query" actions and authentication. I could potentially add extra actions in there. Putting stuff in a spreadsheet is interesting - you could have stuff channelling into columns. It reminds me a bit of Ted Nelson's ZigZag[1]. I'm yet to design an associative structure between things in the trail - but I'm imagining a sticky mess. Nige [1] http://www.nongnu.org/gzz/gi/gi.html On 11/05/2008, Paul Makepeace wrote: > FWIW, take a look at Google's GData APIs; they're based on Atom and I > think provide what you're after: > > Overview: http://code.google.com/apis/gdata/overview.html > Actual example: http://code.google.com/apis/gdata/basics.html > > Not necessarily to use them but they might give you some ideas of how > to encode your actions. That said, if you do want to use them I think > Simon Wistow has done some GData stuff with Net::Google::Calendar(?). > If you get anything working in Perl I'm definitely interested as I was > toying with storing some stuff in a spreadsheet :-) > > P > > On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 11:34 AM, Nigel Hamilton wrote: > > How you storing your actions > > > > > > > > The actions are extracted from perl module files. I use a simple regex > introspection method (think PPI-lite) on the source code to extract the web > methods that get loaded into a registry. When an action happens it is stored > as a 'perceptron' which is a frozen perl object that gets stored into a > 'trail' of events and actions of different types (email, chat, shell command > etc). Actions land in your personal trail and can link back to the channel > where you made it. > > > > Why am I doing this? I'm trying to be more productive by minimising > context switching and information overload while improving memory and > creativity. The perceptrons fall into channels which means you can stay > focussed - that's the theory - so far it's been working for me and my small > company but I'm planning on sharing the system and RSS is one way to publish > the perceptrons.But that's only part of the story -- I also need a way of > adding actions and was wondering if there is an standard out there. If not, > then HTML forms in the payload of the RSS should work. > > > > Nige > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2008/5/9 Nigel Hamilton : > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I'm designing a way of taking actions in response to 'events' > (e.g., > > > > commit, email, shell commands, chat messages etc). The events can be > > > > published via RSS but I would also like a way of publishing actions > that go > > > > with them. I've checked out RSS and Atom but it seems the actions are > added > > > > in ad hoc way as embedded HTML forms. Does anyone know of an upcoming > > > > standard for this type of thing? I'm happy to go with embedded HTML > forms > > > > but I was wondering if there is a better way? > > > > > > > > Nige > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > BristolBathPM mailing list > > > > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > > > > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Aviation Briefing Limited > > > > > > The Old Library > > > 6 Linden Road > > > Clevedon > > > BS21 7SN > > > > > > VAT Reg No: 737 1220 56 > > > > > > AvBrief is the trading name of Aviation Briefing Limited > > > > > > Aviation Briefing Limited is a company registered in England and Wales > > > > > > Company No: 3709975 Registered Office: Glen Yeo House, Station Road, > > > Congresbury, North Somerset BS49 5DY > > > _______________________________________________ > > > BristolBathPM mailing list > > > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > > > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > BristolBathPM mailing list > > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com Mon May 12 11:54:49 2008 From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:54:49 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080512/a277af80/attachment.pl From aaron.trevena at gmail.com Mon May 12 12:59:00 2008 From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 12:59:00 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: Hi All, I'm a carry-over from the old bath.pm list. Previously worked for Sift and Inty in bristol (and remained subscribed to underscore and bath.pm since). Now contracting with an international classifieds website in London, from my home-office near Truro, and consulting for Aviation Briefing (previously based in exeter and now some posh place near bristol) after contracting with them for a year or so. Thinking about applying for that job at IMDB if it's still advertised when this contract ends in october ;) Finally, I have at least 3 perl t-shirts : Green "bad greek" Rivendell.pm, blue #!perl is my bitch, and blue "if you programmed in perl you'd be home by now" A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Mon May 12 13:46:51 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:46:51 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <48283C3B.4040307@cosmicperl.com> Peter Haworth wrote: > On Fri, 09 May 2008 19:20:39 +0100, Lyle wrote: > >> Don't be afraid to introduce yourself :) >> > > I started using Perl about 14 years ago when I started working for > IOP Publishing. Yes, I have been in the same IT job for that long, > though I'm now the Chief Developer for whatever that's worth. At > work, my use of perl is mostly involved with our Electronic Journals > system (http://www.iop.org/EJ/), covering the web UI, interaction > with an external access management system, the custom CMS used by our > production staff and the related access stats system. I also > occasionally use perl for writing the mail client I'm sending this > message with, though development has been stalled for a couple of > years. I've dabbled a bit with Java, but since I've been essentially > stuck on the EJ project (which is almost all Perl) for more than a > decade, I haven't really had much chance to try any other languages > in earnest. > Welcome to the list! I wouldn't worry about not having chance to use much of other languages, I've dabled a bit with C and C++, PHP, etc. Always went back to Perl :-) > In my spare time, I "organize" the Severn Wheelers unicycle hockey > team, and play PS3 games. > Now that sounds like fun. Must take them an awful lot of practice. Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Mon May 12 14:36:09 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 14:36:09 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <482847C9.7020306@cosmicperl.com> Aaron Trevena wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm a carry-over from the old bath.pm list. > Welcome back! > Finally, I have at least 3 perl t-shirts : Green "bad greek" > Rivendell.pm, blue #!perl is my bitch, and blue "if you programmed in > perl you'd be home by now Right, that's it. We going to have to get some Perl t-shirts made for our group :-) I'll start a new thread... Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Mon May 12 14:42:35 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 14:42:35 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] B&BPM T-Shirts Message-ID: <4828494B.7060706@cosmicperl.com> Hi All, I think it would be cool if we got some Perl t-shirts made for our group. Don't worry you wouldn't have to wear them to each meet :-P Suggestions please... Personally I'd like to keep the language clean so we could wear them without amusing kids and upsetting mothers. Also does anyone know the legal status of the Standard Perl logo's? As I understand it the Camel is O'Reilly's and cannot be used without consent. But the onion is ok?? Either way we can always come up with our own B&BPM logo. Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Mon May 12 15:40:07 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 15:40:07 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] UWE presentation Message-ID: <482856C7.1070105@cosmicperl.com> Hi All, Seems like we are in a UWE :-) I just got this email from Richard Manley:- Hi Lyle, Julia Dawson has suggested that you would be interested in talking to some of the IT administrators at UWE regarding perl. I manage the team that provides IT support to the maths, computer science, and engineering disciplines, and I think four or five of the team (out of a total of 12-ish) would be interested in learning more. Does that make it worth a trip for you? Academic staff may also be interested, but Julia suggested that you were primarily interested in talking to sys-admins. If you'd like to come, let me know what kind of times/dates would work and we'll fix something up. Thanks, Richard. -- Richard Manley Technical Manager ? Computing and Electronics Bristol Institute of Technology I replied saying that we also use Perl a lot for CGI and Web Apps and would be interested in talking to anyone there who is interested in Perl or could benefit from using Perl. So now we need to figure out what we are going to offer them presentation wise. Also my questions to the group:- A) Has anyone here pitched to a Uni before? B) Who has public speaking experience? Nige, I understand you have, are there others? C) What do you think we should put in our presentation to the sysadmins? D) Who's interested in coming? E) Do you think it'd be worth giving Barbie a call from Birmingham.pm? Lyle From paulm at paulm.com Mon May 12 16:17:20 2008 From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 16:17:20 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: Lyle entertainly managed to discover that the .txt version of my resume was still Jan-04 vintage where it said i was in Bristol (which wasn't even strictly true then) so invited me over... (I actually live in Dublin, Ireland, previously London, previously California, previously Texas, previously Cambridge, and _then_ Bristol :-)) My day job's writing code to assist in maintaining and developing Google's production infrastructure: this is mostly in python, and internal languages, with occasional perl -le action. I make it a hobby to litter our documentation with perl one-liners... My occasional evening job is writing Perl+Catalyst+DBIx::Class code for a company I'm part of in London, although that's moving more into 'tech lead' position as we recruit other Perl+Catalyst+DBIC programmers. I'll be giving a talk on integrating Catalyst into a legacy PHP app at the London perl tech meet on 29th May, fwiw. I have a 120kg 5RM squat :-) P On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:20 PM, Lyle wrote: > Hi All, > I can see from the list manager we've had another 4 new members in the > last couple of days... > > Don't be afraid to introduce yourself :) > > > Lyle > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > From aaron.trevena at gmail.com Mon May 12 16:19:05 2008 From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 16:19:05 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] B&BPM T-Shirts In-Reply-To: <4828494B.7060706@cosmicperl.com> References: <4828494B.7060706@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: I suggest : IKB in a bath with a camel! A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting From aaron.trevena at gmail.com Mon May 12 16:21:25 2008 From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 16:21:25 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] B&BPM T-Shirts In-Reply-To: References: <4828494B.7060706@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: 2008/5/12 Aaron Trevena : > I suggest : IKB in a bath with a camel! Discworld style : IKB standing in a bath, on 4 camels, on a giant barge A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting From something at amias.org.uk Mon May 12 16:44:59 2008 From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 16:44:59 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <1210607099.6450.14.camel@home> On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 19:20 +0100, Lyle wrote: > Hi All, > I can see from the list manager we've had another 4 new members in the > last couple of days... > > Don't be afraid to introduce yourself :) Don't think i've introduced myself , hi i'm Amias , yes its my real name. I was born and bread in Bath and back and forth to london for work for more exciting companies then got sick of london and run away. During my time in london i was loosely affiliated with london.pm and quite a few companies , http://amias.org.uk/cv for more. I'm currently working for runbox.com part time . As a person I'm vegan , political and hairy , i like making and consuming food , music and ideas. I don't know what else to add here as i do lots of things , some of which you may disapprove , i suppose its fair to say i'm very individual which is why i like Perl and its quirks. I've done many things with Perl and am currently liking catalyst lots. Toodle-pip Amias -- Freelance programming , consultancy and hardware builds blog.amias.org.uk * www.amias.org.uk * www.ecotalk.org.uk From david at cantrell.org.uk Mon May 12 18:53:04 2008 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 18:53:04 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Updating MySQL database calls to work with MSSQL and SQLite In-Reply-To: <4825D9FA.9080700@cosmicperl.com> References: <4824982B.4010603@cosmicperl.com> <4825D9FA.9080700@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <20080512175241.GA10625@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 06:23:06PM +0100, Lyle wrote: > Interesting. But for my purposes I generally try to stick to pure Perl > modules ... > > Strangely enough that brings me on to the CPAN dependencies lookup > feature... Can't for the life of me remember who maintains that :P > It would be REALLY useful if it showed which dependencies were pure Perl > and which used XS and alike. I had a spare hour while waiting for the gas man to come and look at my boiler, suck in air through his teeth and say "gonna cost ya but I can do a real nice deal if you pay cash", so ... http://shorterlink.org/4033 Purity warnings are off by default, but if you click the tickybox the colour bar will be replaced by some red warning text for impure (impure! unclean!) modules. -- David Cantrell | Cake Smuggler Extraordinaire PERL: Politely Expressed Racoon Love From dave at dave.org.uk Mon May 12 19:07:32 2008 From: dave at dave.org.uk (Dave Cross) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 19:07:32 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] B&BPM T-Shirts In-Reply-To: <4828494B.7060706@cosmicperl.com> References: <4828494B.7060706@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <48288764.9090106@dave.org.uk> Lyle wrote: > Hi All, > I think it would be cool if we got some Perl t-shirts made for our > group. Don't worry you wouldn't have to wear them to each meet :-P > > Suggestions please... There used to be a Bath.pm t-shirt. It had a rubber duck on it. If Leon is still around, he might be able to supply more details. Or a photo. > Also does anyone know the legal status of the Standard Perl logo's? > > As I understand it the Camel is O'Reilly's and cannot be used without > consent. But the onion is ok?? http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/perl/usage/ http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl_trademark I've never heard of O'Reilly turning down a request for Perl Mongers group to use the camel. But you need to ask them. hth, Dave... From cms at beatworm.co.uk Mon May 12 20:33:22 2008 From: cms at beatworm.co.uk (Colin M. Strickland) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 20:33:22 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: <16afc9550805100249m118105d8ifbf9fbc95a3d0cb2@mail.gmail.com> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> <16afc9550805100249m118105d8ifbf9fbc95a3d0cb2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51848683-841F-4DF6-BE9E-765E26BB382A@beatworm.co.uk> On 10 May 2008, at 10:49, Alex Francis wrote: > I used to work at Sift and I think I'm the fourth perl person to move > from Sift to IMDb. I was the second. I've been dabbling with perl since I started at Sift, while they were still a tiny startup (I was something silly like employee #14), and was handed a camel book on my first day having no prior knowledge of it really, alhough I had quite a lot of awk and C which helped. From there to a longer stint at Amazon/IMDb, and subsequently I've been doing my own thing for a year or two, primarily as a Macintosh developer. I've done quite a lot of work with relational databases, and I dabble with other languages as well, but perl is usually at the head of the shortlist when I'm thinking of whipping something up. I was also on the old list, and around at Sift when they had the domain and stuff, but it was always fairly moribund, as I recall. -- Regards, Colin M. Strickland From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Mon May 12 21:29:20 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 21:29:20 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <4828A8A0.1070907@cosmicperl.com> Paul Makepeace wrote: > Lyle entertainly managed to discover that the .txt version of my > resume was still Jan-04 vintage where it said i was in Bristol (which > wasn't even strictly true then) so invited me over... > :-) Glad to see you joined. > I'll be giving a talk on integrating Catalyst into a legacy PHP app at > the London perl tech meet on 29th May, fwiw. > I should have a good look at Catalyst, I've been planning on using CGI::Application (can't help sticking up for the underdog). Any chance you fancy helping with our UWE presentation? > I have a 120kg 5RM squat :-) > Now that is impressive! Unfortunately I haven't been able to do much in the way of squatting since I messed up my quads in a black belt grading 3 years ago. Although I'm hoping with a few more sports massage sessions things will be sorted... Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Mon May 12 21:34:31 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 21:34:31 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: <1210607099.6450.14.camel@home> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> <1210607099.6450.14.camel@home> Message-ID: <4828A9D7.1060108@cosmicperl.com> Amias Channer wrote: > Don't think i've introduced myself , hi i'm Amias , yes its my real > name. > We've already spoke, but welcome to the list anyway :-) Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Mon May 12 21:36:07 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 21:36:07 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Updating MySQL database calls to work with MSSQL and SQLite In-Reply-To: <20080512175241.GA10625@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <4824982B.4010603@cosmicperl.com> <4825D9FA.9080700@cosmicperl.com> <20080512175241.GA10625@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <4828AA37.1040607@cosmicperl.com> David Cantrell wrote: > On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 06:23:06PM +0100, Lyle wrote: > > >> Interesting. But for my purposes I generally try to stick to pure Perl >> modules ... >> >> Strangely enough that brings me on to the CPAN dependencies lookup >> feature... Can't for the life of me remember who maintains that :P >> It would be REALLY useful if it showed which dependencies were pure Perl >> and which used XS and alike. >> > > I had a spare hour while waiting for the gas man to come and look at my > boiler, suck in air through his teeth and say "gonna cost ya but I can > do a real nice deal if you pay cash", so ... > > http://shorterlink.org/4033 > > Purity warnings are off by default, but if you click the tickybox the > colour bar will be replaced by some red warning text for impure (impure! > unclean!) modules. > Great stuff! This is going to save me a load of time. (although to be honest I was looking forward to doing the patch, I'll have to find another update and submit it when I get chance). Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Mon May 12 21:47:40 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 21:47:40 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: <51848683-841F-4DF6-BE9E-765E26BB382A@beatworm.co.uk> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> <16afc9550805100249m118105d8ifbf9fbc95a3d0cb2@mail.gmail.com> <51848683-841F-4DF6-BE9E-765E26BB382A@beatworm.co.uk> Message-ID: <4828ACEC.2040606@cosmicperl.com> Colin M. Strickland wrote: > On 10 May 2008, at 10:49, Alex Francis wrote: > > >> I used to work at Sift and I think I'm the fourth perl person to move >> from Sift to IMDb. >> > > I was the second. I've been dabbling with perl since I started at > Sift, while they were still a tiny startup (I was something silly like > employee #14), and was handed a camel book on my first day having no > prior knowledge of it really, alhough I had quite a lot of awk and C > which helped. Glad you joined us :-) > From there to a longer stint at Amazon/IMDb, and > subsequently I've been doing my own thing for a year or two, primarily > as a Macintosh developer. I've done quite a lot of work with > relational databases, and I dabble with other languages as well, but > perl is usually at the head of the shortlist when I'm thinking of > whipping something up. > In my experience not putting Perl at the top of your shortlist only means you'll end up re-coding it in Perl later ;-) > I was also on the old list, and around at Sift when they had the > domain and stuff, but it was always fairly moribund, as I recall. > I have to say that so far I think this list is doing really well! Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Mon May 12 21:50:52 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 21:50:52 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] B&BPM T-Shirts In-Reply-To: References: <4828494B.7060706@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <4828ADAC.9030303@cosmicperl.com> Aaron Trevena wrote: > 2008/5/12 Aaron Trevena : > >> I suggest : IKB in a bath with a camel! >> > > Discworld style : IKB standing in a bath, on 4 camels, on a giant barge > > A. > Is there any chance you could do some quick sketchs to illustrate these? Anything will do, even something on paper scanned in then I'll get my designer to look at them. Lyle From psykx.out at googlemail.com Mon May 12 22:07:47 2008 From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (psykx.out at googlemail.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 22:07:47 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: <4826145E.8060001@cosmicperl.com> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> <16afc9550805100249m118105d8ifbf9fbc95a3d0cb2@mail.gmail.com> <4825DBBA.6060503@cosmicperl.com> <16afc9550805101151v1787a019w75baf27bc5da8d43@mail.gmail.com> <4826145E.8060001@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <4828B1A3.2080904@gmail.com> I'm new to the bath.pm list. I live just outside bath but work in swindon currently for legatio (you probably haven't heard of us but we do identity verification for financial organisations amongst other things). Currently I'm using perl to translate PAF data into a usable mysql format (at work) and to play with prime numbers in my spare time. I can (thats what my job started as) program in PHP. and I'm learning C and/or C++ in the nearish future. I don't own any geeky t-shirts (yet) Max P.S what do people think on having an IRC channel? would anybody use it? From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Mon May 12 22:42:58 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 22:42:58 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: <4828B1A3.2080904@gmail.com> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> <16afc9550805100249m118105d8ifbf9fbc95a3d0cb2@mail.gmail.com> <4825DBBA.6060503@cosmicperl.com> <16afc9550805101151v1787a019w75baf27bc5da8d43@mail.gmail.com> <4826145E.8060001@cosmicperl.com> <4828B1A3.2080904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4828B9E2.9020102@cosmicperl.com> psykx.out at googlemail.com wrote: > I'm new to the bath.pm list. I live just outside bath but work in > swindon currently for legatio (you probably haven't heard of us but we > do identity verification for financial organisations amongst other > things). Currently I'm using perl to translate PAF data into a usable > mysql format (at work) and to play with prime numbers in my spare time. > I can (thats what my job started as) program in PHP. and I'm learning C > and/or C++ in the nearish future. > Welcome Max. > I don't own any geeky t-shirts (yet) > Hopefully we'll all have a B&BPM one soon ;-) > P.S what do people think on having an IRC channel? would anybody use it? > I can't say I use IRC at the moment. But I may be persuaded to... As far as I can tell we could just start a new channel on irc.perl.org Lyle From nigel at turbo10.com Tue May 13 07:14:34 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (nigel at turbo10.com) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 07:14:34 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] UWE presentation In-Reply-To: <482856C7.1070105@cosmicperl.com> References: <482856C7.1070105@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <50fec4060805122314j247ec6cbm30f52d2d7fa3645c@mail.gmail.com> HI Lyle, This is a great opportunity. But I would suggest asking them to run an open seminar for staff and students - not just sysadmins. I'd suggest a fairly general talk that has the aim of exciting people about Perl. For the closet-mongers in the audience they can sagely nod but for the uninitiated it could be an opportunity to look again and even for the regular Perl users it could reinvigorate their interest. "If you used Perl you would be home now" could be an underlying theme. One way of approaching the presentation would be to provide a historical overview of Perl - where it comes from, how it has developed and where it is going. Along the way we could have some speaker(s) share their excitement about Perl - how/why/when/where they use it - in shorter lightning talk length case studies. The historical outline could cover things like: Larry, linguistics, TMTOWTDI, CPAN, Perl Foundation, Artistic Licence, Perl Best Practices, TAP, YAPC, Perl Mongers, Web frameworks, Moose, Perl6 etc. At the end the audience should: * appreciate that Perl is a thriving technology with an active community that "runs deep" * be excited by the prospect of "getting home early" * see opportunities to use Perl in their work * feel stronger about defending Perl in light of other technologies The message for the different types of audience could be: * closet-Mongers - get out of the closet - join the BP&PM - be proud to use Perl in the organisation * new users - Perl is a tool that can make your life easier - it has a long but low learning curve - here are some starting points * Java/Ruby/Python fanboys etc - Perl is another tool you should add to your toolbox * managers - save money - use CPAN - Buy Perl Best Practices for your team I'm happy to volunteer to do the historical outline and introduce lightning talk case studies along the way. Maybe we should discuss this at the first pub meeting? I'm sure Bath University would also be interested in putting on a similar seminar for staff and students. Just some ideas ... Nige On 12/05/2008, Lyle wrote: > Hi All, > Seems like we are in a UWE :-) > > I just got this email from Richard Manley:- > > Hi Lyle, > Julia Dawson has suggested that you would be interested in talking to > some of the IT administrators at UWE regarding perl. I manage the team > that provides IT support to the maths, computer science, and engineering > disciplines, and I think four or five of the team (out of a total of > 12-ish) would be interested in learning more. Does that make it worth a > trip for you? Academic staff may also be interested, but Julia suggested > that you were primarily interested in talking to sys-admins. If you'd > like to come, let me know what kind of times/dates would work and we'll > fix something up. Thanks, Richard. > -- Richard Manley Technical Manager ? Computing and Electronics Bristol > Institute of Technology > > > > I replied saying that we also use Perl a lot for CGI and Web Apps and > would be interested in talking to anyone there who is interested in Perl > or could benefit from using Perl. > > > So now we need to figure out what we are going to offer them > presentation wise. > Also my questions to the group:- > > A) Has anyone here pitched to a Uni before? > B) Who has public speaking experience? Nige, I understand you have, are > there others? > C) What do you think we should put in our presentation to the sysadmins? > D) Who's interested in coming? > E) Do you think it'd be worth giving Barbie a call from Birmingham.pm? > > > Lyle > > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > From aaron.trevena at gmail.com Tue May 13 08:02:40 2008 From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 08:02:40 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] B&BPM T-Shirts In-Reply-To: <4828ADAC.9030303@cosmicperl.com> References: <4828494B.7060706@cosmicperl.com> <4828ADAC.9030303@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: 2008/5/12 Lyle : > Aaron Trevena wrote: > > 2008/5/12 Aaron Trevena : > > > >> I suggest : IKB in a bath with a camel! > >> > > > > Discworld style : IKB standing in a bath, on 4 camels, on a giant barge > > > > A. > > > > Is there any chance you could do some quick sketchs to illustrate these? > Anything will do, even something on paper scanned in then I'll get my > designer to look at them. Not a hope - a) I was (mostly) joking and b) I can't draw for toffee. I'd probably still buy the discworld style t-shirt if you could get somebody to do it :) A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting From aaron.trevena at gmail.com Tue May 13 08:15:59 2008 From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 08:15:59 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] B&BPM T-Shirts In-Reply-To: <4828ADAC.9030303@cosmicperl.com> References: <4828494B.7060706@cosmicperl.com> <4828ADAC.9030303@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: 2008/5/12 Lyle : > Is there any chance you could do some quick sketchs to illustrate these? > Anything will do, even something on paper scanned in then I'll get my > designer to look at them. More seriously, I;d suggest keeping it very simple - rubber ducky with IKB's signature Stovepipe top hat. A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting From something at amias.org.uk Tue May 13 09:50:53 2008 From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 09:50:53 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] UWE presentation In-Reply-To: <50fec4060805122314j247ec6cbm30f52d2d7fa3645c@mail.gmail.com> References: <482856C7.1070105@cosmicperl.com> <50fec4060805122314j247ec6cbm30f52d2d7fa3645c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1210668653.6770.3.camel@home> On Tue, 2008-05-13 at 07:14 +0100, nigel at turbo10.com wrote: > > This is a great opportunity. But I would suggest asking them to > run an open seminar for staff and students - not just sysadmins. I'd > suggest a fairly general talk that has the aim of exciting people > about Perl. Lightening talks are always enjoyable , people could do 5 minutes on how to solve a particular problem with Perl. Most people can concentrate or talk for 5 minutes so it gets lots of people involved. I could talk about catalyst or www::mechanise on a serious tip or a roundup of some of the sillier perl modules from ACME::* if frivolity is required. Toodle-pip Amias -- Freelance programming , consultancy and hardware builds blog.amias.org.uk * www.amias.org.uk * www.ecotalk.org.uk From mail at andrewbeaton.net Tue May 13 10:20:34 2008 From: mail at andrewbeaton.net (Andrew Beaton) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 10:20:34 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <7df394270805130220ud1391eared846c7791b969f5@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, Well I'll try and be active on this list, so here we go... I've been using Perl now for about 8 years, since my first job out of Uni (UWE), where I started to play with CGI and web projects. Nowadays I work for an internet security company in Bristol, mainly writing and maintaining antivirus / antispam software and then suffering the painful journey back to Weston super Mare each night. Recently we've started moving more into Windows development, so it's been Visual Studio and C# .net etc, but it's still about a 60/40 split with the old Perl. I've joined up to hopefully pick up lots more knowledge as I still feel I've got plenty more to learn. Sadly no Perl tshirts in my collection, so I'll be watching the other thread with great anticipation. *cough* Cheers, Andrew B 2008/5/9 Lyle : > Don't be afraid to introduce yourself :) > > Lyle From nigel at turbo10.com Tue May 13 12:23:10 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (nigel at turbo10.com) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 12:23:10 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] UWE presentation In-Reply-To: <1210668653.6770.3.camel@home> References: <482856C7.1070105@cosmicperl.com> <50fec4060805122314j247ec6cbm30f52d2d7fa3645c@mail.gmail.com> <1210668653.6770.3.camel@home> Message-ID: <50fec4060805130423i5d448274yed793b05b35fcb29@mail.gmail.com> Agreed. Frivolity is good too. A talk synopsis could read something like: "Powered by Perl" Learn more about the swiss army knife of computer languages. Local Perl 'Mongers' will describe in a series of short lightning talks how they use Perl for work and play and why it is their language of choice. Nige On 13/05/2008, Amias Channer wrote: > On Tue, 2008-05-13 at 07:14 +0100, nigel at turbo10.com wrote: > > > > This is a great opportunity. But I would suggest asking them to > > run an open seminar for staff and students - not just sysadmins. I'd > > suggest a fairly general talk that has the aim of exciting people > > about Perl. > > Lightening talks are always enjoyable , people could do 5 minutes > on how to solve a particular problem with Perl. Most people can > concentrate or talk for 5 minutes so it gets lots of people involved. > > I could talk about catalyst or www::mechanise on a serious tip > or a roundup of some of the sillier perl modules from ACME::* > if frivolity is required. > > Toodle-pip > Amias > -- > Freelance programming , consultancy and hardware builds > blog.amias.org.uk * www.amias.org.uk * www.ecotalk.org.uk > > > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Tue May 13 12:25:24 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 12:25:24 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] UWE presentation In-Reply-To: <1210668653.6770.3.camel@home> References: <482856C7.1070105@cosmicperl.com> <50fec4060805122314j247ec6cbm30f52d2d7fa3645c@mail.gmail.com> <1210668653.6770.3.camel@home> Message-ID: <48297AA4.6060209@cosmicperl.com> Amias Channer wrote: > On Tue, 2008-05-13 at 07:14 +0100, nigel at turbo10.com wrote: > > Lightening talks are always enjoyable , people could do 5 minutes > on how to solve a particular problem with Perl. Most people can > concentrate or talk for 5 minutes so it gets lots of people involved. > > I could talk about catalyst or www::mechanise on a serious tip > or a roundup of some of the sillier perl modules from ACME::* > if frivolity is required. > > catalyst and www::mechanise would be great. I don't think a lot of people know that Perl has catalyst and what it is capable of. Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Tue May 13 12:27:36 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 12:27:36 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] UWE presentation In-Reply-To: <50fec4060805122314j247ec6cbm30f52d2d7fa3645c@mail.gmail.com> References: <482856C7.1070105@cosmicperl.com> <50fec4060805122314j247ec6cbm30f52d2d7fa3645c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48297B28.8020503@cosmicperl.com> nigel at turbo10.com wrote: > Just some ideas ... > Nige, you're a star! That all sounds brilliant. Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Tue May 13 12:29:11 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 12:29:11 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: <7df394270805130220ud1391eared846c7791b969f5@mail.gmail.com> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> <7df394270805130220ud1391eared846c7791b969f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48297B87.3080303@cosmicperl.com> Andrew Beaton wrote: > Hi all, > > Well I'll try and be active on this list, so here we go... > Welcome to the list, glad you want to be involved. > I've been using Perl now for about 8 years, since my first job out of > Uni (UWE), where I started to play with CGI and web projects. Nowadays > I work for an internet security company in Bristol, mainly writing and > maintaining antivirus / antispam software and then suffering the > painful journey back to Weston super Mare each night. > > Recently we've started moving more into Windows development, so it's > been Visual Studio and C# .net etc, but it's still about a 60/40 split > with the old Perl. > What was the motivation behind the move to c#? Did they look at cataylst and alike? > I've joined up to hopefully pick up lots more knowledge as I still > feel I've got plenty more to learn. > > Sadly no Perl tshirts in my collection, so I'll be watching the other > thread with great anticipation. *cough* > Watch this space! Lyle From mail at andrewbeaton.net Tue May 13 13:01:29 2008 From: mail at andrewbeaton.net (Andrew Beaton) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 13:01:29 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: <48297B87.3080303@cosmicperl.com> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> <7df394270805130220ud1391eared846c7791b969f5@mail.gmail.com> <48297B87.3080303@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <7df394270805130501i667ef5baiba969e2fa2c710d1@mail.gmail.com> 2008/5/13 Lyle : > Welcome to the list, glad you want to be involved. Thanks :) Hopefully the list will take off well. > > Recently we've started moving more into Windows development, so it's > > been Visual Studio and C# .net etc, but it's still about a 60/40 split > > with the old Perl. > > > > What was the motivation behind the move to c#? Did they look at cataylst > and alike? > We recently have started to expand from web based applications and into client side filtering, AD and hosted services, and I believe that as we are aiming now primarily at Microsoft customers, a Windows development environment and .NET was the way forward. As just a lowly developer, I don't get involved in those business critical desiciions that often. Although I was very sceptical about the idea to move from Linux to start with, I'm slowly getting used to it and the ease of Visual Studio. Luckily we've still got plenty of Perl projects here that I can get my head stuck into when VS locks up! Regards, Andrew B From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Tue May 13 13:03:24 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 13:03:24 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] B&BPM T-Shirts In-Reply-To: References: <4828494B.7060706@cosmicperl.com> <4828ADAC.9030303@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <4829838C.50306@cosmicperl.com> Aaron Trevena wrote: > 2008/5/12 Lyle : > >> Is there any chance you could do some quick sketchs to illustrate these? >> Anything will do, even something on paper scanned in then I'll get my >> designer to look at them. >> > > More seriously, I;d suggest keeping it very simple - rubber ducky with > IKB's signature Stovepipe top hat. > > A. > That's pretty good. I've emailed O'Reilly to see about using the camel. Lyle From aaron.trevena at gmail.com Tue May 13 13:56:15 2008 From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 13:56:15 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] B&BPM T-Shirts In-Reply-To: <4829838C.50306@cosmicperl.com> References: <4828494B.7060706@cosmicperl.com> <4828ADAC.9030303@cosmicperl.com> <4829838C.50306@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: 2008/5/13 Lyle : > That's pretty good. I've emailed O'Reilly to see about using the camel. You should be able to use the standard Programming Republic of Perl logo for perl mongers shirts : http://www.oreilly.de/info/perl/republic/usage.html A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting From sulisinteriors at btconnect.com Tue May 13 15:30:51 2008 From: sulisinteriors at btconnect.com (Neil O'Connell) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 15:30:51 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] my subscription email address is??? In-Reply-To: <4829838C.50306@cosmicperl.com> References: <4828494B.7060706@cosmicperl.com> <4828ADAC.9030303@cosmicperl.com> <4829838C.50306@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <4829A61B.1000407@btconnect.com> Lyle and Co - sincere apologies for the intrusion. I am trying to quietly remove myself off the list - I am trolling I think. The un-subscribe route on the site insists on my subscription email address - which I cannot determine, because I am a klutz. Could someone give me a hint as to how to do this - or better yet please remove me. I suspect you all have something good going here - crack on. Regards, Neil Lyle wrote: > Aaron Trevena wrote: > >> 2008/5/12 Lyle : >> >> >>> Is there any chance you could do some quick sketchs to illustrate these? >>> Anything will do, even something on paper scanned in then I'll get my >>> designer to look at them. >>> >>> >> More seriously, I;d suggest keeping it very simple - rubber ducky with >> IKB's signature Stovepipe top hat. >> >> A. >> >> > > That's pretty good. I've emailed O'Reilly to see about using the camel. > > > Lyle > > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080513/ee051e14/attachment.html From something at amias.org.uk Tue May 13 15:34:31 2008 From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 15:34:31 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] my subscription email address is??? In-Reply-To: <4829A61B.1000407@btconnect.com> References: <4828494B.7060706@cosmicperl.com> <4828ADAC.9030303@cosmicperl.com> <4829838C.50306@cosmicperl.com> <4829A61B.1000407@btconnect.com> Message-ID: <1210689271.6770.20.camel@home> On Tue, 2008-05-13 at 15:30 +0100, Neil O'Connell wrote: > Lyle and Co - sincere apologies for the intrusion. I am trying to > quietly remove myself off the list - I am trolling I think. The > un-subscribe route on the site insists on my subscription email > address - which I cannot determine, because I am a klutz. your subscription address will appear in the headers as X-Original-To: It is Neil O'Connell Toodle-pip Amias -- Freelance programming , consultancy and hardware builds blog.amias.org.uk * www.amias.org.uk * www.ecotalk.org.uk From mhsparks at gmail.com Tue May 13 16:13:36 2008 From: mhsparks at gmail.com (Mark Hughes) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 16:13:36 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:20 PM, Lyle wrote: > > Don't be afraid to introduce yourself :) > Hi all, I've been using Perl for the last ten years or so to develop a fantasy sports games engine which we use for a variety of customers. Our code is now largely HTML::Mason and Class::DBI based - two great modules which have served us well over the years. Lyle found me advertising a vacancy in Bristol and suggested I joined up and mentioned it on the list. So here goes - we're recruiting: http://jobs.perl.org/job/8560 Mark. From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Tue May 13 16:45:40 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 16:45:40 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members In-Reply-To: References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <4829B7A4.3050604@cosmicperl.com> Mark Hughes wrote: > Hi all, > > I've been using Perl for the last ten years or so to develop a fantasy > sports games engine which we use for a variety of customers. Our code > is now largely HTML::Mason and Class::DBI based - two great modules > which have served us well over the years. > > Lyle found me advertising a vacancy in Bristol and suggested I joined > up and mentioned it on the list. So here goes - we're recruiting: > Hi Mark, glad you could join us :) > http://jobs.perl.org/job/8560 > I'm sure someone here will be interested. Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Tue May 13 22:27:25 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 22:27:25 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Meet on the 27th, venue vote Message-ID: <482A07BD.1080907@cosmicperl.com> Hi All, I've just got back from checking out the 2 suggested Bristol venues. Both have their own merits. Below are my thoughts on each. The Watershed Positives: WiFi, Power sockets, friendly staff, quiet, good crowd (seemed to me like an IT group meet would fit right in), girl to boy ratio was about 70/30... is this where all the quiet girls have been hiding? Negatives: Drinks are a bit pricey, cannot smoke on the balcony so smokers would have to go downstairs and outside, quite far for people from temple meeds to travel (i.e. those from bath getting the train) The Reckless Engineer Positives: Very quiet on tuesdays (we'd basically have the place to ourselves), power sockets, very cheep drinks, friendly staff, more of a pub than a bar, right opposite temple meads station, very cheap car parking at rear, smokers have to go outside but it's just outside the centre no drink zone so you can take your drinks outside. Negatives: No WiFi, not aimed towards an IT crowd I like them both on their own merits. Let's put it to the vote! Lyle -- CosmicPerl.com CGI Scripts Lyle Hopkins "How can I help?" From psykx.out at googlemail.com Tue May 13 22:36:17 2008 From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (psykx.out at googlemail.com) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 22:36:17 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Meet on the 27th, venue vote In-Reply-To: <482A07BD.1080907@cosmicperl.com> References: <482A07BD.1080907@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <482A09D1.9040904@gmail.com> [snip] I don't know bristol at all and I'd already be on the train from work so I vote for the The Reckless Engineer Max From robingarthedwards at googlemail.com Wed May 14 10:26:36 2008 From: robingarthedwards at googlemail.com (Rob Edwards) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 10:26:36 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Meet on the 27th, venue vote In-Reply-To: <482A09D1.9040904@gmail.com> References: <482A07BD.1080907@cosmicperl.com> <482A09D1.9040904@gmail.com> Message-ID: I vote the watershed. Rob 2008/5/13 : > [snip] > > I don't know bristol at all and I'd already be on the train from work > so I vote for the The Reckless Engineer > > Max > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > -- Aviation Briefing Limited The Old Library 6 Linden Road Clevedon BS21 7SN VAT Reg No: 737 1220 56 AvBrief is the trading name of Aviation Briefing Limited Aviation Briefing Limited is a company registered in England and Wales Company No: 3709975 Registered Office: Glen Yeo House, Station Road, Congresbury, North Somerset BS49 5DY From jamesbewley at gmail.com Wed May 14 11:13:53 2008 From: jamesbewley at gmail.com (James Bewley) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:13:53 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Meet on the 27th, venue vote In-Reply-To: References: <482A07BD.1080907@cosmicperl.com> <482A09D1.9040904@gmail.com> Message-ID: The beer is a tad on the expensive side, but i'm still gonna put my vote with the watershed. James I vote the watershed. > > Rob > > > I don't know bristol at all and I'd already be on the train from work > > so I vote for the The Reckless Engineer > > > > Max > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080514/ee9ea269/attachment.html From aaron.trevena at gmail.com Wed May 14 14:51:58 2008 From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 14:51:58 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Meet on the 27th, venue vote In-Reply-To: <482A07BD.1080907@cosmicperl.com> References: <482A07BD.1080907@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: 2008/5/13 Lyle : > I've just got back from checking out the 2 suggested Bristol venues. > Both have their own merits. Below are my thoughts on each. You don't have to stick to one. Give each a try :) London.pm for example have a pub minion who decided the next pub - they have a few regular venues, but a lot of variety. A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Wed May 14 15:00:08 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 15:00:08 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Meet on the 27th, venue vote In-Reply-To: References: <482A07BD.1080907@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <482AF068.30803@cosmicperl.com> Aaron Trevena wrote: > 2008/5/13 Lyle : > >> I've just got back from checking out the 2 suggested Bristol venues. >> Both have their own merits. Below are my thoughts on each. >> > > You don't have to stick to one. Give each a try :) > > London.pm for example have a pub minion who decided the next pub - > they have a few regular venues, but a lot of variety. > > A. > I agree.. So the vote is on which one we go to this month. next month we'll vote on a bath pub, then the month after we'll try whichever the looser in this current pub vote...??? If that makes sense :-\ Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Wed May 14 22:07:29 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 22:07:29 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Meet on the 27th, venue vote In-Reply-To: <482A07BD.1080907@cosmicperl.com> References: <482A07BD.1080907@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <482B5491.9030804@cosmicperl.com> Hey All, ... you know it's not very democratic if we only get 3 votes! :-) Lyle From alex at alexfrancis.org.uk Thu May 15 09:43:40 2008 From: alex at alexfrancis.org.uk (Alex Francis) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 09:43:40 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Meet on the 27th, venue vote In-Reply-To: <482B5491.9030804@cosmicperl.com> References: <482A07BD.1080907@cosmicperl.com> <482B5491.9030804@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <16afc9550805150143t7b43263kba014290bd7c3f95@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 10:07 PM, Lyle wrote: > Hey All, > ... you know it's not very democratic if we only get 3 votes! :-) > > > Lyle > I don't really mind either, but if I had to pick I'd pick the watershed. Alex From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Thu May 15 12:01:54 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 12:01:54 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Benchmarking CGI scripts Message-ID: <482C1822.90108@cosmicperl.com> Hi All, I'm nearing the end (finally) of a huge update (more of a rewrite) a software project (over 10,000+ lines). It's CGI based, tracking clicks. Now I want to run some proper benchmarks so I know exactly how much traffic the software can handle in clicks per second... I'd like a report of the number of clicks sent per second over say, an hour period and what the server load was for each minute. I'm assuming that I need 2 machines, with one send clicks to the other. I could use my US server to call my UK server, but I don't know what software to use and my searches haven't brought up much :-( Also I concerned that this is similar to a DOS attack? Is there a change my hosting providers will cut my connection or block my IP once I start the test? I could setup a couple of local machines, but I'm guessing the tests wouldn't be that accurate as they are conducted over a LAN rather than the net. Any and all advice and pointers welcome. Lyle From alex at alexfrancis.org.uk Thu May 15 12:29:26 2008 From: alex at alexfrancis.org.uk (Alex Francis) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 12:29:26 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Benchmarking CGI scripts In-Reply-To: <482C1822.90108@cosmicperl.com> References: <482C1822.90108@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <16afc9550805150429q55ffa247s80bc783f98615141@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Lyle wrote: > Hi All, > I'm nearing the end (finally) of a huge update (more of a rewrite) a > software project (over 10,000+ lines). > > It's CGI based, tracking clicks. Now I want to run some proper > benchmarks so I know exactly how much traffic the software can handle in > clicks per second... > If it's as simple as a click tracker, I'd start with "ab" which comes with apache. It's seriously simple to run and get some idea of what your software can handle. Pretty sure you can run it from one box against URLs on another. Alex From revford at blueyonder.co.uk Thu May 15 12:36:08 2008 From: revford at blueyonder.co.uk (Gavin Ford) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 12:36:08 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Benchmarking CGI scripts In-Reply-To: <482C1822.90108@cosmicperl.com> References: <482C1822.90108@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <20080515113608.GA15621@bluemidget> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 12:01:54PM +0100, Lyle wrote: > Any and all advice and pointers welcome. Couldn't you script a bunch of wget or LWP::Simple get() to simulate clicks on against the server? If you're aiming for a mass of hits per second all from the same address it could look like a DOS attack. Maybe vary the pages on the server you hit, something simple like an array of page addresses to randomly hit, make it look more like a spider than an attack. Maybe you should lets the hosts know in advance what you're planning so they can be ready for it and not cut you off? Hits should be simple enough to pull from the access log. You could run a script to pull RAM, CPU and IO loads and time stamp them, then compare that the web server's access log. -- Gav Ford revford at blueyonder.co.uk http://revford.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk I think we need to: Kick the quasar board -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080515/47ed5634/attachment-0001.bin From r.ashton at progressive.co.uk Thu May 15 12:48:56 2008 From: r.ashton at progressive.co.uk (Ashton, Ross) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 12:48:56 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Software Developer - C, Unix Shell Scripts, Perl, Python, Databases, Bristol Message-ID: Are you a shell scripting guru looking for work with a successful international company? Offering rapid career progression working on projects for household names, my client are seeking ambitious developers with a passion for new technology and a willingness to learn. The successful candidate MUST have: - C - Shell Scripting It would be beneficial to have knowledge of Python, Perl, Korn shell or Oracle. Send me your CV immediately to be considered and call me on 01179 337 666 to ensure I have received it. Interviewing immediately. ?22,000 to ?35,000 plus benefits Best Regards, Ross Ross Ashton Senior Consultant Applications Engineering and Architecture, Quality Assurance & Testing Progressive Tel +44 (0)117 9 337 666 mailto:r.ashton at progressive.co.uk If you know anybody who is looking for employment in the IT field, please feel free to pass on my contact details. > If you have any comments on the service that you receive from Progressive please mail them to: http://customercare at progressive.co.uk > To view a selection of our available Candidates visit http://www.progressive.co.uk/resumes > Or to view our full range of Client and Candidate facilities go to http://www.progressive.co.uk > > > > Search for CVs on-line or sign-up for jobs by email at: http://www.progressive.co.uk This electronic transmission is confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s.) If you are not an intended addressee, you must not disclose, copy, distribute or take any action in reliance upon this transmission. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify Progressive Ltd. You can find our privacy statement at http://www.progressive.co.uk/privacy.html If you do not want to receive electronic mail from us about our services, or would like to confirm or qualify how your personal data is held by us, please send a request via email to data-audit at progressive.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080515/74831444/attachment.html From jamesbewley at gmail.com Thu May 15 13:47:36 2008 From: jamesbewley at gmail.com (James Bewley) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 13:47:36 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Benchmarking CGI scripts In-Reply-To: <16afc9550805150429q55ffa247s80bc783f98615141@mail.gmail.com> References: <482C1822.90108@cosmicperl.com> <16afc9550805150429q55ffa247s80bc783f98615141@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'd second that, ab is a very good tool for benchmarking and can give you a lovely set of data you can feed into a graph generator such as GNUPlot. It gives you data such as the response times from the request submission to initial query response and total transaction time. JB -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080515/b9b1fa40/attachment.html From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Thu May 15 21:30:38 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 21:30:38 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Benchmarking CGI scripts In-Reply-To: <482C1822.90108@cosmicperl.com> References: <482C1822.90108@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <482C9D6E.1070400@cosmicperl.com> Thanks guys, looks like I'll write a script to log the load, etc, and use AB to simulate the clicks. From what I've read about AB I'll be able to use it to benchmark Lighttpd as well. Lyle From paulm at paulm.com Thu May 15 21:58:46 2008 From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 21:58:46 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Benchmarking CGI scripts In-Reply-To: <482C1822.90108@cosmicperl.com> References: <482C1822.90108@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: Another vote for ab. I'd drop your provider a line in advance and let them know out of courtesy, and to cover your ass on the offchance it goes legal. Bear in mind if you're running on a shared host your results are going to be dependent on other things like how much machine load the host is experiencing, and depending on how their network provision there might also be an effect on latency/throughput. (SmokePing is useful for tracking this, http://oss.oetiker.ch/smokeping/ You might even watch for an effect during your tests.) Don't forget to profile your app at some point :-) Paul On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Lyle wrote: > Hi All, > I'm nearing the end (finally) of a huge update (more of a rewrite) a > software project (over 10,000+ lines). > > It's CGI based, tracking clicks. Now I want to run some proper > benchmarks so I know exactly how much traffic the software can handle in > clicks per second... > > I'd like a report of the number of clicks sent per second over say, an > hour period and what the server load was for each minute. > > I'm assuming that I need 2 machines, with one send clicks to the other. > I could use my US server to call my UK server, but I don't know what > software to use and my searches haven't brought up much :-( > > Also I concerned that this is similar to a DOS attack? Is there a change > my hosting providers will cut my connection or block my IP once I start > the test? I could setup a couple of local machines, but I'm guessing the > tests wouldn't be that accurate as they are conducted over a LAN rather > than the net. > > > Any and all advice and pointers welcome. > > > Lyle > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Thu May 15 22:29:23 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 22:29:23 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Meet at 7pm Tuesday 27th May Watershed Message-ID: <482CAB33.80706@cosmicperl.com> Hi All, The votes have been counted (on one hand, lol) and the meet will indeed be at the Watershed. Please spread the word, everyone is welcome, those new to Perl and those old... heck, even those who are just interested in finding out more :-) If you are coming from Bath please let me know what time and I'll look at bus time tables/ taxi costs for you from Template meeds station. I'm guessing a Taxi to the Watershed wouldn't be much more than a fiver. If you could possibly arrive at the same time then you could all share a taxi :-) Anyone who is worried about getting lost or not sure exactly where to go, send me an email and I'll give you my mobile number. Lyle From revford at blueyonder.co.uk Thu May 15 22:59:34 2008 From: revford at blueyonder.co.uk (Gavin Ford) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 22:59:34 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Meet at 7pm Tuesday 27th May Watershed In-Reply-To: <482CAB33.80706@cosmicperl.com> References: <482CAB33.80706@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <20080515215934.GA25552@bluemidget> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 10:29:23PM +0100, Lyle wrote: > If you are coming from Bath please let me know what time and I'll look > at bus time tables/ taxi costs for you from Template meeds station. I'm > guessing a Taxi to the Watershed wouldn't be much more than a fiver. If > you could possibly arrive at the same time then you could all share a > taxi :-) It's really only a 5 or 10 minute walk at most from Temple Meads to the Watershed. From the station, cross the front of St Mary Redcliffe, skirt Queens Square and across the Horny Bridge. Here is a little map, thanks to Google: http://revford.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/bbpm-route-templemeads-watershed.jpg I hope it's helpful to someone. -- Gav Ford revford at blueyonder.co.uk http://revford.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk I think we need to: Boost the sonic conduit -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080515/9343bc88/attachment.bin From psykx.out at googlemail.com Sat May 17 11:05:50 2008 From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (psykx.out) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 11:05:50 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] IDE religious war Message-ID: <482EADFE.5010102@googlemail.com> Hi all, Which IDE or editor do you use for perl and which is the best? Regards Max p. the topic title is a joke please don't get too carried away From revford at blueyonder.co.uk Sat May 17 11:47:31 2008 From: revford at blueyonder.co.uk (Gavin Ford) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 11:47:31 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] IDE religious war In-Reply-To: <482EADFE.5010102@googlemail.com> References: <482EADFE.5010102@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <20080517104731.GA28615@bluemidget> On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 11:05:50AM +0100, psykx.out wrote: > Which IDE or editor do you use for perl and which is the best? I just use a text editor, GNU nano. One terminal with the code, another for testing it. A browser window open if it's a web thing. The last IDE type thing I used would have been for Visual Basic 3 on Windows 3.1. I've not really thought of such a thing for Perl. Is the Emacs vs vi holy war over yet or we going to get a skirmish here? -:-}= -- Gav Ford revford at blueyonder.co.uk http://revford.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk I think we need to: Bypass the booster slot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080517/fe93675c/attachment.bin From paulm at paulm.com Sat May 17 13:07:31 2008 From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 13:07:31 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] IDE religious war In-Reply-To: <482EADFE.5010102@googlemail.com> References: <482EADFE.5010102@googlemail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 11:05 AM, psykx.out wrote: > Hi all, > Which IDE or editor do you use for perl and which is the best? Two iTerms running GNU screen running vim. One screen per source file in the source iTerm, and build, test, deploy, appserver windows in the other. Another scheme I quite like (when doing Catalyst) is having HTML, PHP, Controller, Schema, appserver, test, root screens. I've found naming and renaming as appropriate screen windows really useful - I used to leave them all as 'bash' but found that was a big mistake. On Windows I quite like Ultraedit, but it has a bug where it always stats the files whenever the window gets focus which introduces an annoying lag when I'm working with a lot of files over Samba. I've never figured out how to turn this off. So PuTTY+vim+screen it usually is... P > > > Regards Max > > p. the topic title is a joke please don't get too carried away > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080517/3db639b3/attachment-0001.html From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com Sat May 17 13:26:29 2008 From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 13:26:29 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] New Members References: <482495F7.8040609@cosmicperl.com> <48283C3B.4040307@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080517/5cbf7e4d/attachment.pl From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com Sat May 17 13:36:10 2008 From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 13:36:10 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Meet on the 27th, venue vote References: <482A07BD.1080907@cosmicperl.com> <482B5491.9030804@cosmicperl.com> <16afc9550805150143t7b43263kba014290bd7c3f95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080517/a5562393/attachment.pl From alex at alexfrancis.org.uk Sat May 17 17:49:58 2008 From: alex at alexfrancis.org.uk (Alex Francis) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 17:49:58 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] IDE religious war In-Reply-To: <482EADFE.5010102@googlemail.com> References: <482EADFE.5010102@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <16afc9550805170949s3894a194r96434c5ac5c7b40e@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 11:05 AM, psykx.out wrote: > Hi all, > Which IDE or editor do you use for perl and which is the best? > > Regards Max > I use Eclipse 3.3 with the EPIC plugin (and also Subclipse and some others). I also occasionally use jEdit and vim for different things. I like features like being able to hit F3 on a function name and (most of the time) get the definition opened correctly (in whatever file it was defined in, even if it was an explicit EXPORT from a module and I'd have to resort to grep to find it manually). Also integrated syntax checking as you type, integrated perltidy, perlcritic and perldoc (although these are not perfect, they're steadily improving). I know all these things can be accomplished in emacs, vim or even jEdit, but I'm too lazy to implement them myself. Eclipse is a beast, I do turn off the "Perl Auto Builder" because in large projects (show me a small one!) it gets very over excited. Alex From nigel at turbo10.com Sat May 17 21:05:36 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 21:05:36 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] IDE religious war In-Reply-To: <16afc9550805170949s3894a194r96434c5ac5c7b40e@mail.gmail.com> References: <482EADFE.5010102@googlemail.com> <16afc9550805170949s3894a194r96434c5ac5c7b40e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <50fec4060805171305h5fa3e73rc9174c4ab4ee2e27@mail.gmail.com> Hi, > Which IDE or editor do you use for perl and which is the best? For code editing I recently changed to Gedit [1] from kwrite and before that nano. For the rest of the cycle: pain -? idea -? design -? code -? check -? critique -? test -? run-? release -? real-life I use a DIY web-based IDE called The Goo that runs in elinks/firefox. Nige [1] http://blog.thegoo.org - planning to open source this soon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080517/4dfe162d/attachment.html From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Sun May 18 12:25:47 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:25:47 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] IDE religious war In-Reply-To: <482EADFE.5010102@googlemail.com> References: <482EADFE.5010102@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <4830123B.3070404@cosmicperl.com> I tend to develop in a Windoze environment. Use Textpad a lot, but gave Komodo a trial the other month and was very impressed. I didn't have chance to try out even 1/4 the features but it did seem to cover everything. Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Sun May 18 12:30:06 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:30:06 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Meet on the 27th, venue vote In-Reply-To: References: <482A07BD.1080907@cosmicperl.com> <482B5491.9030804@cosmicperl.com> <16afc9550805150143t7b43263kba014290bd7c3f95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4830133E.10109@cosmicperl.com> Peter Haworth wrote: > You didn't > mention the food in your comparison, Lyle. The Watershed's food is good, > if mildly pretentious. I have no idea what the Engineer's food is actually > like, but their menu (http://www.reckless-engineer.co.uk/listmenu.php) > looks OK. > Unfortunately the Reckless Engineer stopped serving food before I got there (about 7:30 I think). Their menu looked ok (nice and cheap) and the guy at the bar said it was good (but then he would). The Watershed had quite a large menu, but it was only available to be read off their big black boards, there was nothing on paper I could take away with me. Lyle From something at amias.org.uk Sun May 18 12:56:51 2008 From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:56:51 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Meet on the 27th, venue vote In-Reply-To: References: <482A07BD.1080907@cosmicperl.com> <482B5491.9030804@cosmicperl.com> <16afc9550805150143t7b43263kba014290bd7c3f95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1211111811.6343.8.camel@home> On Sat, 2008-05-17 at 13:36 +0100, Peter Haworth wrote: > Likewise, even though the Reckless Engineer is closer to me. You didn't > mention the food in your comparison, Lyle. The Watershed's food is good, > if mildly pretentious. I have no idea what the Engineer's food is actually > like, but their menu (http://www.reckless-engineer.co.uk/listmenu.php) > looks OK. Which is best for vegans ? if its just me i'll bring sandwiches and a clothes peg but it would be nice to be somewhere that doesn't stink of meat . Toodle-pip Amias -- Freelance programming , consultancy and hardware builds blog.amias.org.uk * www.amias.org.uk * www.ecotalk.org.uk From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Sun May 18 16:48:28 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 16:48:28 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Meet on the 27th, venue vote In-Reply-To: <1211111811.6343.8.camel@home> References: <482A07BD.1080907@cosmicperl.com> <482B5491.9030804@cosmicperl.com> <16afc9550805150143t7b43263kba014290bd7c3f95@mail.gmail.com> <1211111811.6343.8.camel@home> Message-ID: <48304FCC.30703@cosmicperl.com> Amias Channer wrote: > Which is best for vegans ? if its just me i'll bring sandwiches and a > clothes > peg but it would be nice to be somewhere that doesn't stink of meat . > I'd say the Watershed Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Mon May 19 21:12:58 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 21:12:58 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] An Adventure in Technology Message-ID: <4831DF4A.9050501@cosmicperl.com> I just got this email from Shevek, an active member of B&B LUG:- Hi Lyle, As you might have heard, Mik and I are organising an event called "An Adventure in Technology", which is basically a meeting ground for people to have a lot of fun with technology. We've been doing some liaison with small businesses via organisations such as Business Link and the Prince's Trust. A lot of these people need to find technical skills and don't know where to find them, and we're hoping to bring a number of them in to this event. Would you be willing to present or nominate a presenter to talk about the local PerlMongers group for one or two minutes, just to say what it is, who it is, and what it offers them? Thanks! S. Anyone interested? Lyle From psykx.out at googlemail.com Mon May 19 22:41:57 2008 From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (psykx.out) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 22:41:57 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] An Adventure in Technology In-Reply-To: <4831DF4A.9050501@cosmicperl.com> References: <4831DF4A.9050501@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <4831F425.1050408@googlemail.com> Lyle wrote: > I just got this email from Shevek, an active member of B&B LUG:- > > > Hi Lyle, > > As you might have heard, Mik and I are organising an event called "An > Adventure in Technology", which is basically a meeting ground for people > to have a lot of fun with technology. > > We've been doing some liaison with small businesses via organisations > such as Business Link and the Prince's Trust. A lot of these people need > to find technical skills and don't know where to find them, and we're > hoping to bring a number of them in to this event. > > Would you be willing to present or nominate a presenter to talk about > the local PerlMongers group for one or two minutes, just to say what it > is, who it is, and what it offers them? > > Thanks! > > S. > > > Anyone interested? > > > Lyle > > > > > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > When is it? Max p.s I feel I'm too new to represent the group From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Tue May 20 11:17:23 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 11:17:23 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] An Adventure in Technology In-Reply-To: <4831F425.1050408@googlemail.com> References: <4831DF4A.9050501@cosmicperl.com> <4831F425.1050408@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <4832A533.30709@cosmicperl.com> psykx.out wrote: > When is it? > Details are at:- http://community.livejournal.com/techadventure/ > Max > > p.s I feel I'm too new to represent the group > Nonsense, new group, we are all new :) Lyle From something at amias.org.uk Tue May 20 12:16:33 2008 From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 12:16:33 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] An Adventure in Technology In-Reply-To: <4832A533.30709@cosmicperl.com> References: <4831DF4A.9050501@cosmicperl.com> <4831F425.1050408@googlemail.com> <4832A533.30709@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <1211282193.6451.31.camel@home> On Tue, 2008-05-20 at 11:17 +0100, Lyle wrote: > http://community.livejournal.com/techadventure/ Since Perl is best known for its oneliners how about we represent Perl by doing a top ten Perl one liners talk/skit for techadventure ? For inspiration: http://sial.org/howto/perl/one-liner/ Bring em on ... Toodle-pip Amias -- Freelance programming , consultancy and hardware builds blog.amias.org.uk * www.amias.org.uk * www.ecotalk.org.uk From psykx.out at googlemail.com Tue May 20 14:34:30 2008 From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (psykx.out at googlemail.com) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 13:34:30 +0000 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] An Adventure in Technology In-Reply-To: <1211282193.6451.31.camel@home> References: <4831DF4A.9050501@cosmicperl.com> <4831F425.1050408@googlemail.com> <4832A533.30709@cosmicperl.com> <1211282193.6451.31.camel@home> Message-ID: <4832D366.7070708@googlemail.com> Amias Channer wrote: > On Tue, 2008-05-20 at 11:17 +0100, Lyle wrote: > >> http://community.livejournal.com/techadventure/ >> > > Since Perl is best known for its oneliners how about we represent > Perl by doing a top ten Perl one liners talk/skit for techadventure ? > > For inspiration: > http://sial.org/howto/perl/one-liner/ > > Bring em on ... > > Toodle-pip > Amias > > > Thats like saying Casanova was best known for one night stands Max From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Tue May 20 15:35:32 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 15:35:32 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] An Adventure in Technology In-Reply-To: <4832D366.7070708@googlemail.com> References: <4831DF4A.9050501@cosmicperl.com> <4831F425.1050408@googlemail.com> <4832A533.30709@cosmicperl.com> <1211282193.6451.31.camel@home> <4832D366.7070708@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <4832E1B4.4000802@cosmicperl.com> psykx.out at googlemail.com wrote: > Amias Channer wrote: > >> Since Perl is best known for its oneliners how about we represent >> Perl by doing a top ten Perl one liners talk/skit for techadventure ? >> > Thats like saying Casanova was best known for one night stands > > Max > I agree. My initial contact with Perl was when everyone was basically saying Perl was CGI (obviously not, but it was a common misconception at one point). I found out about Perl one liners much later, I've always thought it's the complicated and hard to read one liners that cause a lot of the 'Perl is hard to read/understand' folly. Maybe we could do a bit on common one liners and short scripts. Then something like 'Perl can be easy to read' and the same examples with a touch of PBP to try and show people that Perl is (or can be) friendly and readable. Lyle From paulm at paulm.com Tue May 20 15:53:24 2008 From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 15:53:24 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] An Adventure in Technology In-Reply-To: <4832E1B4.4000802@cosmicperl.com> References: <4831DF4A.9050501@cosmicperl.com> <4831F425.1050408@googlemail.com> <4832A533.30709@cosmicperl.com> <1211282193.6451.31.camel@home> <4832D366.7070708@googlemail.com> <4832E1B4.4000802@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Lyle wrote: > psykx.out at googlemail.com wrote: > > Amias Channer wrote: > > > >> Since Perl is best known for its oneliners how about we represent > >> Perl by doing a top ten Perl one liners talk/skit for techadventure ? > >> > > Thats like saying Casanova was best known for one night stands > > > > Max > > > > I agree. My initial contact with Perl was when everyone was basically > saying Perl was CGI (obviously not, but it was a common misconception at > one point). I found out about Perl one liners much later, I've always > thought it's the complicated and hard to read one liners that cause a > lot of the 'Perl is hard to read/understand' folly. IMO, one of perl's selling points is its position as the best sysadmin tool for text processing. Whereas perl's case in the world of say web frameworks, ORMs, etc is questionable with languages and their libraries like python, Ruby, Java, and even PHP around, simply nothing can touch it on the command line. Having seen some absolute horrors from VB scripts to lengthy Java programs to do what perl can do in a few characters, I really think this is something you can sell to folks. P > > Maybe we could do a bit on common one liners and short scripts. Then > something like 'Perl can be easy to read' and the same examples with a > touch of PBP to try and show people that Perl is (or can be) friendly > and readable. > > > Lyle > > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080520/93a921c9/attachment.html From psykx.out at googlemail.com Tue May 20 22:42:10 2008 From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (psykx.out) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 22:42:10 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] a hash of hashes, too many errors Message-ID: <483345B2.1090905@googlemail.com> Hey I'm getting this error Useless use of hash element in void context at ./three.pl line 97. I have googled it and found that I am probably treating a scalar like a hash reference but I can't see where. below is the offending lines 90 if( defined $thash{$k[$key]} ){ 91 $n = $result; 92 while( !defined $high ){ 93 $n++; 94 if ( ${$thash}{$k[$key]}{$j} => $result ){ 95 $high = ${$thash}{$k[$key]}{$j}; 96 } 97 } Yes those are the correct line numbers I think I just have sooo many errors. $thash is a reference to a multidimensional hash (2D), $key is an int and $k is an array reference. Cheers max p.s this isn't for work From paulm at paulm.com Wed May 21 00:24:30 2008 From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 00:24:30 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] a hash of hashes, too many errors In-Reply-To: <483345B2.1090905@googlemail.com> References: <483345B2.1090905@googlemail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 10:42 PM, psykx.out wrote: > > Hey I'm getting this error > > Useless use of hash element in void context at ./three.pl line 97. > > I have googled it and found that I am probably treating a scalar like a > hash reference but I can't see where. below is the offending lines > > 90 if( defined $thash{$k[$key]} ){ > 91 $n = $result; > 92 while( !defined $high ){ > 93 $n++; > 94 if ( ${$thash}{$k[$key]}{$j} => $result ){ Do you mean >= ? # greater than or equal You can also write this, if (defined (my $whatever= $thash{$k[$key]})) { # ... if ($whatever->{$j} >= $result) { Clearer & quicker. > 95 $high = ${$thash}{$k[$key]}{$j}; > 96 } > 97 } > > Yes those are the correct line numbers I think I just have sooo many > errors. $thash is a reference to a multidimensional hash (2D), $key is > an int and $k is an array reference. > > Cheers max > > p.s this isn't for work > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm From nigel at turbo10.com Wed May 21 09:14:37 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 09:14:37 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] IDE religious war In-Reply-To: <4830123B.3070404@cosmicperl.com> References: <482EADFE.5010102@googlemail.com> <4830123B.3070404@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <50fec4060805210114j358ecc1cm26bc5da4de7fd6f5@mail.gmail.com> I just saw "Kephra" fly by on CPAN = a CPAN installable Perl powered text editor. It still is in the formative stages but this looks like an excellent start. This could form part of a Perl IDE. Nige -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080521/cb8c1b85/attachment.html From something at amias.org.uk Wed May 21 15:53:11 2008 From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 15:53:11 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] IDE religious war -> Kephra In-Reply-To: <50fec4060805210114j358ecc1cm26bc5da4de7fd6f5@mail.gmail.com> References: <482EADFE.5010102@googlemail.com> <4830123B.3070404@cosmicperl.com> <50fec4060805210114j358ecc1cm26bc5da4de7fd6f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1211381591.6228.21.camel@home> On Wed, 2008-05-21 at 09:14 +0100, Nigel Hamilton wrote: > > I just saw "Kephra" fly by on CPAN = a CPAN installable Perl powered > text editor. It still is in the formative stages but this looks like > an excellent start. This could form part of a Perl IDE. Just had a go with it , its very light and fast , works great on ubuntu hardy and has a lot of dependencies but they all work happily. perl -MCPAN -e'install Kephra' (sudo to taste) Toodle-pip Amias -- Freelance programming , consultancy and hardware builds blog.amias.org.uk * www.amias.org.uk * www.ecotalk.org.uk From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Thu May 22 02:41:52 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 02:41:52 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] a hash of hashes, too many errors In-Reply-To: <483345B2.1090905@googlemail.com> References: <483345B2.1090905@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <4834CF60.7090200@cosmicperl.com> psykx.out wrote: > Hey I'm getting this error > > Useless use of hash element in void context at ./three.pl line 97. > > I have googled it and found that I am probably treating a scalar like a > hash reference but I can't see where. below is the offending lines > > 90 if( defined $thash{$k[$key]} ){ > 91 $n = $result; > 92 while( !defined $high ){ > 93 $n++; > 94 if ( ${$thash}{$k[$key]}{$j} => $result ){ > 95 $high = ${$thash}{$k[$key]}{$j}; > 96 } > 97 } > > 94 if ( ${$thash}{$k[$key]}{$j} => $result ){ Are you intending to do a hash assignment? I'm guessing you men >= or ==. A bit of arrow notation and spacing wouldn't go a miss :-P > Yes those are the correct line numbers I think I just have sooo many > errors. $thash is a reference to a multidimensional hash (2D), $key is > an int and $k is an array reference. > if $thash is a reference, then shouldn't you have:- 90 if( defined $thash->{ $k->[$key] } ){ I'm not sure what $j is, I'm guessing another hash key? Maybe:- 91 $n = $result; 92 while( !defined $high ) { 93 $n++; 94 if ( $thash->{ $k->[$key] }->{$j} == $result ){ 95 $high = $thash->{ $k->[$key] }->{$j}; 96 } 97 } When nested data structure start to get confusing Data::Dumper is a real life saver:- use Data::Dumper; print Data::Dumper->Dump([$thash],[qw (thash)]); Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Fri May 23 12:37:30 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 12:37:30 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Starting an open source project Message-ID: <4836AC7A.20301@cosmicperl.com> Hi All, I've been planning an open source project for years, and I'm hoping to finally start it in the next few weeks. I'm wondering what's the best way to start these things? Grab a .org, open a Sourceforge account??? It'll be my first open source project, I want to try and get it right. Experience, suggestions, dos and don'ts welcome. Lyle From nigel at turbo10.com Fri May 23 13:36:31 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 13:36:31 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Starting an open source project In-Reply-To: <4836AC7A.20301@cosmicperl.com> References: <4836AC7A.20301@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <50fec4060805230536s3fe3864cp40da64e1ffc6b919@mail.gmail.com> Hi Lyle, > Experience, suggestions, dos and don'ts welcome. I'm certainly no expert and I've still got lots to learn. But here are some of the things I think make a good project: * they scratch an itch - ideally the project lead has the problem the software/project is solving * there is a changelog * an easy learning curve for new users * easy path to contribution etc. * an active *positive* community supporting it * a commercially positive IP licence - not something that has an agenda (e.g., GPLv3) Nige 2008/5/23 Lyle : > Hi All, > I've been planning an open source project for years, and I'm hoping to > finally start it in the next few weeks. I'm wondering what's the best > way to start these things? > Grab a .org, open a Sourceforge account??? > It'll be my first open source project, I want to try and get it right. > > Experience, suggestions, dos and don'ts welcome. > > > Lyle > > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080523/187c3a8b/attachment-0001.html From nigel at turbo10.com Fri May 23 13:48:09 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 13:48:09 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Interaction Design Chat + Free Beer Message-ID: <50fec4060805230548j2ed233c4l8bd809c787f1704a@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I'm in the process of designing the next version of the Trexy.com search engine and as part of the 'interaction design' I need to interview/chat with people about their current search engine behaviour and usage in order to build up 'user personas' for use in the rest of the design. If you are interested in drinking free beer, don't mind being asked tricky questions (how often do you search for 'paris hilton'?) and are free for an hour before the tech meet next week then please email me offlist. Thanks, Nige -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080523/7c72bb76/attachment.html From jon at phuq.co.uk Fri May 23 13:48:57 2008 From: jon at phuq.co.uk (Jon Wilson) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 22:48:57 +1000 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Starting an open source project In-Reply-To: <50fec4060805230536s3fe3864cp40da64e1ffc6b919@mail.gmail.com> References: <4836AC7A.20301@cosmicperl.com> <50fec4060805230536s3fe3864cp40da64e1ffc6b919@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Speaking as a sysadmin, not a developer, making the damn thing easy to install is a great way to broaden your user base. So follow CPAN best practices, don't reinvent the wheel, or write your own version of "make", etc. On 23/05/2008, at 10:36 PM, Nigel Hamilton wrote: > Hi Lyle, > > > Experience, suggestions, dos and don'ts welcome. > > I'm certainly no expert and I've still got lots to learn. But > here are some of the things I think make a good project: > > * they scratch an itch - ideally the project lead has the problem > the software/project is solving > * there is a changelog > * an easy learning curve for new users > * easy path to contribution etc. > * an active *positive* community supporting it > * a commercially positive IP licence - not something that has an > agenda (e.g., GPLv3) > > Nige > > > 2008/5/23 Lyle : > Hi All, > I've been planning an open source project for years, and I'm hoping > to > finally start it in the next few weeks. I'm wondering what's the best > way to start these things? > Grab a .org, open a Sourceforge account??? > It'll be my first open source project, I want to try and get it right. > > Experience, suggestions, dos and don'ts welcome. > > > Lyle > > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm -- Jon Wilson, Sydney, Australia Email: Mob: +61 4 0549 9490 Yahoo: phuq_eu, Skype: jonwilson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080523/c6f9bc2f/attachment.html From mjr at phonecoop.coop Fri May 23 14:15:19 2008 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 14:15:19 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Starting an open source project In-Reply-To: <4836AC7A.20301@cosmicperl.com> References: <4836AC7A.20301@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <4836c367.9gJ6CQAsDQRdFavb%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Lyle wrote: > I've been planning an open source project for years, and I'm hoping to > finally start it in the next few weeks. I'm wondering what's the best > way to start these things? > Grab a .org, open a Sourceforge account??? > It'll be my first open source project, I want to try and get it right. > > Experience, suggestions, dos and don'ts welcome. Can you host the home page yourself, maybe pulling together resources and listings from other places? Sourceforge isn't free software or open source and has recently changed its privacy terms (but I've not checked exactly how yet). See http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.org.fsf.europe.discussion/1172 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.org.fsf.europe.discussion/497 for two lists of alternatives, but many of the hosting platforms come with some licensing baggage or other requirement, which is a pest. I'd really recommend hosting it yourself if you can. I'm a fan of making your git tree available to the world, but as long as you have fairly frequent releases and/or snapshots available somehow, most people will be happy. Good luck! -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 From mjr at phonecoop.coop Fri May 23 14:17:15 2008 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 14:17:15 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? Message-ID: <4836c3db.nv4mgqP9+lLqOta+%mjr@phonecoop.coop> I'm old and cranky and generally irritated by the state of web frameworks. Anyone know the easiest way to do something like http://webpy.org/ in Perl? I can build it myself, but I'm surprised if no-one else has yet. Regards, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 From mjr at phonecoop.coop Fri May 23 14:22:21 2008 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 14:22:21 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Interaction Design Chat + Free Beer In-Reply-To: <50fec4060805230548j2ed233c4l8bd809c787f1704a@mail.gmail.com> References: <50fec4060805230548j2ed233c4l8bd809c787f1704a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4836c50d.spwAOGWGPtgkZ7Kk%mjr@phonecoop.coop> "Nigel Hamilton" wrote: [...] > If you are interested in drinking free beer, don't mind being asked > tricky questions (how often do you search for 'paris hilton'?) and are free > for an hour before the tech meet next week then please email me offlist. Nige I might be interested. - Is trexy.com's search engine free software? - Will the new version produce accessible html? Thanks, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 From nigel at turbo10.com Fri May 23 14:33:29 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 14:33:29 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Interaction Design Chat + Free Beer In-Reply-To: <4836c50d.spwAOGWGPtgkZ7Kk%mjr@phonecoop.coop> References: <50fec4060805230548j2ed233c4l8bd809c787f1704a@mail.gmail.com> <4836c50d.spwAOGWGPtgkZ7Kk%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: <50fec4060805230633k4d5d514drd713ad53950eb7d9@mail.gmail.com> Hi, > I might be interested. > > - Is trexy.com's search engine free software? > It is free to use but the source code is not open source at this time. I'm planning an API and there will be open source CPAN modules to drive it. > > - Will the new version produce accessible html? > I hope so. Can you not access it at the moment? Nige -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080523/b6704b56/attachment.html From gseviour at btinternet.com Fri May 23 14:47:02 2008 From: gseviour at btinternet.com (GARY SEVIOUR) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 14:47:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: <4836c3db.nv4mgqP9+lLqOta+%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: <633770.11346.qm@web86605.mail.ird.yahoo.com> just learn python and save yourself a load of hassle :-p MJ Ray wrote: I'm old and cranky and generally irritated by the state of web frameworks. Anyone know the easiest way to do something like http://webpy.org/ in Perl? I can build it myself, but I'm surprised if no-one else has yet. Regards, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 _______________________________________________ BristolBathPM mailing list BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080523/803d1d4b/attachment.html From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Fri May 23 14:58:07 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 14:58:07 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: <4836c3db.nv4mgqP9+lLqOta+%mjr@phonecoop.coop> References: <4836c3db.nv4mgqP9+lLqOta+%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: <4836CD6F.7030800@cosmicperl.com> MJ Ray wrote: > I'm old and cranky and generally irritated by the state of web frameworks. > Anyone know the easiest way to do something like http://webpy.org/ > in Perl? > > I can build it myself, but I'm surprised if no-one else has yet. > Can't say I know python, but a quick look at this and it seems a lot like CGI::Application and it's associated modules:- http://search.cpan.org/search?query=cgi+application&mode=all Of course if you want something more in depth (but I'm guessing more of a learning curve) use Catalyst:- http://search.cpan.org/search?query=catalyst&mode=all Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Fri May 23 15:03:14 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 15:03:14 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Starting an open source project In-Reply-To: <50fec4060805230536s3fe3864cp40da64e1ffc6b919@mail.gmail.com> References: <4836AC7A.20301@cosmicperl.com> <50fec4060805230536s3fe3864cp40da64e1ffc6b919@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4836CEA2.4020705@cosmicperl.com> Nigel Hamilton wrote: > * a commercially positive IP licence - not something that has an > agenda (e.g., GPLv3) What licence would you recommend? I want it to be really open. The only thing I can think of not wanting is for people to sell it as is, by itself, for profit. I'd be more than happy for it to be used commercially and to be a part of a package that is sold for profit. If that makes sense. Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Fri May 23 15:16:14 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 15:16:14 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Starting an open source project In-Reply-To: References: <4836AC7A.20301@cosmicperl.com> <50fec4060805230536s3fe3864cp40da64e1ffc6b919@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4836D1AE.9030307@cosmicperl.com> Jon Wilson wrote: > Speaking as a sysadmin, not a developer, making the damn thing easy to > install is a great way to broaden your user base. So follow CPAN best > practices, don't reinvent the wheel, or write your own version of > "make", etc. Funnily enough the whole aim of the project is to make installing scripts easier :) It'll be in XUL (haven't done any yet but it looks like fun) so it'll work across Linux and Windoze. Lyle From mjr at phonecoop.coop Fri May 23 16:29:29 2008 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 16:29:29 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Interaction Design Chat + Free Beer In-Reply-To: <4836c50d.spwAOGWGPtgkZ7Kk%mjr@phonecoop.coop> References: <50fec4060805230548j2ed233c4l8bd809c787f1704a@mail.gmail.com> <4836c50d.spwAOGWGPtgkZ7Kk%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: <4836e2d9.H21mA7TJSQcbVn1+%mjr@phonecoop.coop> MJ Ray wrote: [reply to Nige] So, this list breaks the reply buttons. Naughty shame! Sorry about that. I'll take it off-list properly. Regards, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 From mjr at phonecoop.coop Fri May 23 16:32:39 2008 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 16:32:39 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Starting an open source project In-Reply-To: <4836CEA2.4020705@cosmicperl.com> References: <4836AC7A.20301@cosmicperl.com> <50fec4060805230536s3fe3864cp40da64e1ffc6b919@mail.gmail.com> <4836CEA2.4020705@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <4836e397.CInZAOyV6PMnx912%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Lyle wrote: > Nigel Hamilton wrote: > > * a commercially positive IP licence - not something that has an > > agenda (e.g., GPLv3) > > What licence would you recommend? I want it to be really open. I'd recommend the zlib or MIT/Expat. For what it's worth, I think the GPLv3 is commercially positive (restriction of commercial use is not allowed) but I know there are reasons people don't want to use it. > The only > thing I can think of not wanting is for people to sell it as is, by > itself, for profit. I'd be more than happy for it to be used > commercially and to be a part of a package that is sold for profit. If > that makes sense. No, that makes no sense at all to me, but if you want to require people to add a README.new to it to sell it, then go ahead. Regards, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 From nigel at turbo10.com Fri May 23 16:41:24 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 16:41:24 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Starting an open source project In-Reply-To: <4836CEA2.4020705@cosmicperl.com> References: <4836AC7A.20301@cosmicperl.com> <50fec4060805230536s3fe3864cp40da64e1ffc6b919@mail.gmail.com> <4836CEA2.4020705@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <50fec4060805230841u64bdd9abua7da4ea562028a30@mail.gmail.com> HI Lyle, > * a commercially positive IP licence - not something that has an > > agenda (e.g., GPLv3) > > What licence would you recommend? I want it to be really open. The only > thing I can think of not wanting is for people to sell it as is, by > itself, for profit. I think it would be hard for someone to charge for software if the source of the same software is giving it away for free. Their 'profit margin', if any, would be the value they could add to it. > I'd be more than happy for it to be used > commercially and to be a part of a package that is sold for profit. If > that makes sense. > > It really depends on the nature of the system you want to create - the ecosystem it needs to enter and the ecosystem you want to create. Here are some licences that I think are worth a look: * MIT * Apache * http://www.perlfoundation.org/artistic_license_2_0 Nige > > > Lyle > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080523/6a8c52b2/attachment.html From mjr at phonecoop.coop Fri May 23 17:01:43 2008 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 17:01:43 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: <633770.11346.qm@web86605.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <633770.11346.qm@web86605.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4836ea67.5w26Wrdw+6rR1Oxd%mjr@phonecoop.coop> GARY SEVIOUR wrote: > just learn python and save yourself a load of hassle :-p Surprising non-answer from a PM list! FWIW, I already know python, but fewer of my web hosts have it and I'm programming in perl more than python. Even PHP more than python, but I'd prefer to use perl for reasons I'm sure all can guess. Hope that explains, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 From paulm at paulm.com Fri May 23 17:24:55 2008 From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 17:24:55 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: <4836ea67.5w26Wrdw+6rR1Oxd%mjr@phonecoop.coop> References: <633770.11346.qm@web86605.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4836ea67.5w26Wrdw+6rR1Oxd%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 5:01 PM, MJ Ray wrote: > GARY SEVIOUR wrote: >> just learn python and save yourself a load of hassle :-p > > Surprising non-answer from a PM list! I was debating putting a +1 to that answer. These "let's port to $my_fave_lang" projects seem a bit misguided IMO, if that's the only reason & all other things are equal. > FWIW, I already know python, but fewer of my web hosts have it and I'm http://code.google.com/appengine/ has it. They'll be opening this up more in the near future. You could get an account on this easily enough tho' if you knew a Google employee ;-) > programming in perl more than python. Even PHP more than python, but > I'd prefer to use perl for reasons I'm sure all can guess. My prefs these days, FWIW, python > perl >> PHP Here's my other dirty admission: Catalyst & DBIx::Class is just too hard, IMO. The learning curve is WAY steep. P > > Hope that explains, > -- > MJ Ray (slef) > Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small > worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ > (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > From gseviour at btinternet.com Fri May 23 17:45:31 2008 From: gseviour at btinternet.com (GARY SEVIOUR) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 17:45:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: <4836ea67.5w26Wrdw+6rR1Oxd%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mason no good? (there is/was atleast one member of bristolbathpm using it). Personally I think writing your own framework when you have a job to do other than write frameworks is a bad idea. I have worked with an "in-house" framework before (in PHP), it was not a pleasant experience (not because it was PHP ). There is a lot of work to do in rolling your own if you want to get anywhere near the same functionality as something thats already been done (at least 10,000loc), and to top it off you won't have an ever growing library of plug-ins (or other code) available. MJ Ray wrote: GARY SEVIOUR wrote: > just learn python and save yourself a load of hassle :-p Surprising non-answer from a PM list! FWIW, I already know python, but fewer of my web hosts have it and I'm programming in perl more than python. Even PHP more than python, but I'd prefer to use perl for reasons I'm sure all can guess. Hope that explains, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 _______________________________________________ BristolBathPM mailing list BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm --------------------------------- Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080523/bdd46f06/attachment.html From mjr at phonecoop.coop Fri May 23 19:49:10 2008 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 19:49:10 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> GARY SEVIOUR wrote: > Mason no good? (there is/was atleast one member of bristolbathpm using it). I remember Mason from years ago. I think the drawback is that it's mod_perl, which is less common than python CGI. > Personally I think writing your own framework when you have a job to > do other than write frameworks is a bad idea. I have worked with an > "in-house" framework before (in PHP), [...] Yes, I share that bad experience (a previous developer on one site I took over support for had taken a PHP framework example from a magazine and extended it to meet their features, then concealed that). I'd prefer to avoid writing my own, which is why I was looking for a straightforward framework, preferably in perl where I know the relevant modules and web host support situation already and shouldn't get a surprise. Seemed a reasonable question on a pm list... Regards, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Fri May 23 20:02:22 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 20:02:22 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: <483714BE.1060108@cosmicperl.com> MJ Ray wrote: > GARY SEVIOUR wrote: > >> Mason no good? (there is/was atleast one member of bristolbathpm using it). >> > > I remember Mason from years ago. I think the drawback is that it's > mod_perl, which is less common than python CGI. > > >> Personally I think writing your own framework when you have a job to >> do other than write frameworks is a bad idea. I have worked with an >> "in-house" framework before (in PHP), [...] >> > > Yes, I share that bad experience (a previous developer on one site I > took over support for had taken a PHP framework example from a > magazine and extended it to meet their features, then concealed that). > > I'd prefer to avoid writing my own, which is why I was looking for a > straightforward framework, preferably in perl where I know the > relevant modules and web host support situation already and shouldn't > get a surprise. Seemed a reasonable question on a pm list... > I prefer CGI::Application because it's lightweight, pure perl, and you can easily bundle the modules in with your program so whether the host has CGI::Application installed already isn't an issue. Give it a go:- http://cgi-app.org/ Whether in hosting environments python CGI or more available than mod_perl could be debatable. I'd say there isn't that much in it. Also a quick check shows mason can run as CGI:- http://www.masonhq.com/ Still for simplicity using CGI::Application which utilizes CGI.pm and HTML::Template, I think it'll be hard to beat. Lyle From aaron.trevena at gmail.com Fri May 23 20:28:58 2008 From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 20:28:58 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: 2008/5/23 MJ Ray : > GARY SEVIOUR wrote: >> Mason no good? (there is/was atleast one member of bristolbathpm using it). > > I remember Mason from years ago. I think the drawback is that it's > mod_perl, which is less common than python CGI. No it's not. It has a mod_perl handler, you can also use CGI, same goes for all or any of MasonX::MiniMVC, Catalyst, or Maypole. Google App Engine isn't really hosting - you can have any language as long as it's python? Get real. >> Personally I think writing your own framework when you have a job to >> do other than write frameworks is a bad idea. I have worked with an >> "in-house" framework before (in PHP), [...] > > I'd prefer to avoid writing my own, which is why I was looking for a > straightforward framework, preferably in perl where I know the > relevant modules and web host support situation already and shouldn't > get a surprise. Seemed a reasonable question on a pm list... How about the web framework page on the perl5 wiki ? http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/index.cgi?web_frameworks A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting From paulm at paulm.com Fri May 23 20:48:57 2008 From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 20:48:57 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Aaron Trevena wrote: > 2008/5/23 MJ Ray : >> GARY SEVIOUR wrote: >>> Mason no good? (there is/was atleast one member of bristolbathpm using it). >> >> I remember Mason from years ago. I think the drawback is that it's >> mod_perl, which is less common than python CGI. > > No it's not. It has a mod_perl handler, you can also use CGI, same > goes for all or any of MasonX::MiniMVC, Catalyst, or Maypole. > > Google App Engine isn't really hosting - you can have any language as > long as it's python? Get real. If you mean, "I don't know python and don't intend to, so it's not any use for me", then fair enough, but at least be honest about it. (To say it isn't really hosting is absurd: you get space for static files, python, and a datastore. A more realistic issue is "I'm not familiar with a typed key=value data model" and/or "it's not MySQL") I know you're a Perl zealot (also fair enough) but to ding something for being python really is the pot calling the kettle black. It shows you probably haven't even looked at Django, which in some significant areas is way ahead of Catalyst. And if you think App Engine will only support python, think bigger ;-) P > >>> Personally I think writing your own framework when you have a job to >>> do other than write frameworks is a bad idea. I have worked with an >>> "in-house" framework before (in PHP), [...] >> >> I'd prefer to avoid writing my own, which is why I was looking for a >> straightforward framework, preferably in perl where I know the >> relevant modules and web host support situation already and shouldn't >> get a surprise. Seemed a reasonable question on a pm list... > > How about the web framework page on the perl5 wiki ? > > http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/index.cgi?web_frameworks > > A. > > > -- > http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk > LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > From mjr at phonecoop.coop Fri May 23 19:41:57 2008 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 19:41:57 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: References: <633770.11346.qm@web86605.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4836ea67.5w26Wrdw+6rR1Oxd%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: <48370ff5.ITz1uTHXhyskloTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> "Paul Makepeace" wrote: > These "let's port to $my_fave_lang" projects seem a bit misguided IMO, > if that's the only reason & all other things are equal. Well, I've outlined the other reasons, but I'm also amazed no-one's already done it, as this is the sort of stuff that Perl's usually pretty fantastic for and I've seen ports to other languages of the simple framework model. > > FWIW, I already know python, but fewer of my web hosts have it and I'm > > http://code.google.com/appengine/ has it. [...] I can list many other web hosts that have it too, so there's no need to trust the Googlepoly. Nevertheless, that doesn't change the fact that fewer of my web hosts have it, changing isn't my sole decision and python's only my fifth-most-used language. > Here's my other dirty admission: Catalyst & DBIx::Class is just too > hard, IMO. The learning curve is WAY steep. +1 Regards, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 From aaron.trevena at gmail.com Sat May 24 10:13:32 2008 From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena) Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 10:13:32 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: 2008/5/23 Paul Makepeace : >> Google App Engine isn't really hosting - you can have any language as >> long as it's python? Get real. > > If you mean, "I don't know python and don't intend to, so it's not any > use for me", then fair enough, but at least be honest about it. No. I mean that it's effectively useless unless you fancy rewriting many many things (almost all of which aren't perl), looking at any of my servers or my clients servers, I see large ammount of C and C++, a surprising ammount of PHP, and plenty of Java to get things done. Everything from Caching to Mail to Message Queues. The problem is that it's a walled garden with only one language, and a language lacking in both variety and quality of third party applications and modules - PHP would be more useful, I could use hosted PHP as it has a lot of rather good applications (internal coding aside) that are useful, python's killer web app ? > (To say it isn't really hosting is absurd: you get space for static > files, python, and a datastore. A more realistic issue is "I'm not > familiar with a typed key=value data model" and/or "it's not MySQL") Well, yeah - you have a walled garden without an RDBMS, only a limited subset of Python, and um.. little else. > I know you're a Perl zealot (also fair enough) Nope. I just happen to know it well, and have yet to really need much else. PHP and Java have killer apps, and I can get by with what I know in each, heck - I'm looking at spending a fair ammount of cash to learn Java formally, because it has stuff that Perl doesn't and I (or rather my clients) need. Python and Ruby may be cooler, but they have neither the compelling apps or enough difference from Perl, etc to justify investing effort in them. > ... but to ding something for being python really is the pot calling the kettle black. Nope. It exposes Google's internal politics, which is ugly. It also makes the walled garden even worse, by being a walled garden with only one tool with which to tend it. > It shows you probably haven't even looked at Django, which in some significant > areas is way ahead of Catalyst. I don't use Catalyst or Django, why would I look at Django when even the locla python programmers I work with choose a PHP framework instead ? > And if you think App Engine will only support python, think bigger ;-) I'm expecting it to support serverside javascript before perl, no bad thing in itself, but still a similar scenario (lack of good ready made applications, few third party packages - particularly after the limitations imposed for the googleapps hosting system). -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting From aaron.trevena at gmail.com Sat May 24 10:27:20 2008 From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena) Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 10:27:20 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: 2008/5/23 Paul Makepeace : > you probably haven't even looked at Django, which in some significant > areas is way ahead of Catalyst. Care to name a few ? I couldn't see any when I browsed the website. * The ORM doesn't offer anything that DBIx::Class doesn't as far as I could see * The dispatching doesn't work as well as either Maypole or Catalyst (again as far as I could see) * The Templating system seems roughly equivilent to Mason ( " " " " " "), certainly not in the same league as TT (which I believe is being ported to python) The scaffold/admin thing looks quite cool, slightly more DWIM than Catalyst or Maypole, but not "way ahead". Seriously, I've been working with a few python and php guys who are looking at which frameworks to use, and have an active interest in frameworks. I'm looking forward to starting a 3.x branch of Maypole that drops some backward compatibility with 2.x and uses the new HTTP::Engine project to simplify server interaction so I can focus on the really useful stuff. Any new ideas , particularly ideas that have been tried and proven in the field in Django or Catalyst deployments would be really interesting. Reply offlist if you like. A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting From mjr at phonecoop.coop Sat May 24 11:28:40 2008 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 11:28:40 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: <4837edd8.p1p1YCkbjIBfrs/2%mjr@phonecoop.coop> "Aaron Trevena" wrote: > 2008/5/23 MJ Ray : > > I remember Mason from years ago. I think the drawback is that it's > > mod_perl, which is less common than python CGI. > > No it's not. It has a mod_perl handler, you can also use CGI, same > goes for all or any of MasonX::MiniMVC, Catalyst, or Maypole. Thanks for the correction. Whenever I've looked at Mason, it's started discussing mod_perl. I'll look harder. > [...] How about the web framework page on the perl5 wiki ? > http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/index.cgi?web_frameworks Thanks again! I don't think I've seen that wiki before. Layout's a bit mashed in a Firefox-2-based browser here, but it gave me a link to Jifty which I've not seen before, as well as more info on the others. Regards, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Sat May 24 14:01:48 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 14:01:48 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: <4837edd8.p1p1YCkbjIBfrs/2%mjr@phonecoop.coop> References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <4837edd8.p1p1YCkbjIBfrs/2%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: <483811BC.5020201@cosmicperl.com> MJ Ray wrote: > Thanks again! I don't think I've seen that wiki before. Layout's a > bit mashed in a Firefox-2-based browser here, but it gave me a link to > Jifty which I've not seen before, as well as more info on the others. > If you are looking for something simple that'll work across a lot of hosts then I don't think Jifty is the way to go. It's got a lot of dependencies:- http://cpandeps.cantrell.org.uk/?module=Jifty;perl=latest And as far as I can see Win32 support is non existent.. or at least lacking. Lyle From greg at mccarroll.org.uk Sat May 24 14:03:58 2008 From: greg at mccarroll.org.uk (Greg McCarroll) Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 14:03:58 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: <4836c3db.nv4mgqP9+lLqOta+%mjr@phonecoop.coop> References: <4836c3db.nv4mgqP9+lLqOta+%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: <20080524130357.GA717@mccarroll.org.uk> On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 02:17:15PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote: > I'm old and cranky and generally irritated by the state of web frameworks. > Anyone know the easiest way to do something like http://webpy.org/ > in Perl? > Simon Wistow (google for his contact details) has been doing something similar called Fiasco, I can't imagine he'd object too much if you asked him about it. G. From paulm at paulm.com Sat May 24 21:00:22 2008 From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace) Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 21:00:22 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Aaron Trevena wrote: > 2008/5/23 Paul Makepeace : > > you probably haven't even looked at Django, which in some significant > > areas is way ahead of Catalyst. > > Care to name a few ? > > I couldn't see any when I browsed the website. > * The ORM doesn't offer anything that DBIx::Class doesn't as far as I could > see DBIx::Class is certainly powerful, and the dev team is superbly smart; the list is friendly & helpful too. That said, I find it's substantially more complicated (versus complex) and difficult to use, esp if you have an SQL background. You have to really jump through hoops to get some basic (in SQL) stuff done, and only really recently the docs have got to the point where you don't have to be a core developer to make full use of it. Having worked with Cat & DBIC for 2+ years I'm still not clear that a "fuck it, just use SQL with some handy convenience layer" wouldn't be a better solution. Much as I detest PHP-the-language whenever I'm banging my head against some weird DBIC issue I long for a kinder, gentler time with something like PHP. * The dispatching doesn't work as well as either Maypole or Catalyst > (again as far as I could see) > * The Templating system seems roughly equivilent to Mason ( " " " " " > "), certainly not in the same league as TT (which I believe is being > ported to python) The dominant impression I got from the perl audience when Django was presented alongside Catalyst/TT in London a while back, was "OMG it's TT". No-one I heard mentioned mason. Mason is perl; Django template language & TT are distinct mini-languages. Quite different. > The scaffold/admin thing looks quite cool, slightly more DWIM than > Catalyst or Maypole, but not "way ahead". Well IMO it is way ahead. There is nothing like that in Catalyst, even if you look at what Django had over two years ago. Sorry to cop-out but I can't be arsed to go into this because I'd say the choice of languages or frameworks or other fodder that drives so many of these ultimately, ahem, narrowly focussed discussions are quite separate from the business drivers, like "what do most of your eng team program in?" / "where can I find programmers for X?" or "how much will they cost?" or "what does my hosting platform support?" or "how much time can I realistically invest in this?" or "how do the available libraries bear on my particular problem?" that even if you came up with The Framework Answer it would still only have marginal impact on such a decision. I find those business issues just so much more interesting, but that's just me :-) Paul > Seriously, I've been working with a few python and php guys who are > looking at which frameworks to use, and have an active interest in > frameworks. > > I'm looking forward to starting a 3.x branch of Maypole that drops > some backward compatibility with 2.x and uses the new HTTP::Engine > project to simplify server interaction so I can focus on the really > useful stuff. Any new ideas , particularly ideas that have been tried > and proven in the field in Django or Catalyst deployments would be > really interesting. > > Reply offlist if you like. > > A. > > -- > http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk > LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080524/cc4d7ed4/attachment-0001.html From paulm at paulm.com Sat May 24 21:24:43 2008 From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace) Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 21:24:43 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: <48370ff5.ITz1uTHXhyskloTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> References: <633770.11346.qm@web86605.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4836ea67.5w26Wrdw+6rR1Oxd%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <48370ff5.ITz1uTHXhyskloTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 7:41 PM, MJ Ray wrote: > > "Paul Makepeace" wrote: > > These "let's port to $my_fave_lang" projects seem a bit misguided IMO, > > if that's the only reason & all other things are equal. > > Well, I've outlined the other reasons, but I'm also amazed no-one's > already done it, as this is the sort of stuff that Perl's usually > pretty fantastic for and I've seen ports to other languages of the > simple framework model. How do you think Perl is good for web frameworks? IMO the fact that perl lacks even a standard subroutine calling syntax, not to mention object model strikes me as making it pretty weak for that kind of thing. Working with perl/catalyst & python now for a substantial chunk of my waking recent life I, over & over, find myself thinking "god why is this so hard & messy!" in perl. It's quite possible this is just me and how my head works. It is a pretty compelling feeling nonetheless, esp considering I've been writing perl since 93 and python since only 06... The other thought already raised was that to make perl into an 'interesting' language up to the task of writing a framework you need to pull in hundreds of CPAN modules. CPAN dependencies are for some a total non-issue, others a crippling one. This could be the source of a fierce debate but: look at the types of _fundamental_ things you _don't_ get with perl based on what modules you need to install to get Jifty working: escape URIs, operate a cache, serialize data, implement exceptions, send mail safely, test non-trivially ... (ref. http://cpandeps.cantrell.org.uk/?module=Jifty;perl=latest -- cpandeps is a great tool btw!) (In case anyone thinks I'm dinging perl, I do really like it, and stake the majority of my anticipated livelihood on it. I'm just realistic about its shortcomings :-)) P > > > > > FWIW, I already know python, but fewer of my web hosts have it and I'm > > > > http://code.google.com/appengine/ has it. [...] > > I can list many other web hosts that have it too, so there's no need > to trust the Googlepoly. Nevertheless, that doesn't change the fact > that fewer of my web hosts have it, changing isn't my sole decision > and python's only my fifth-most-used language. > > > Here's my other dirty admission: Catalyst & DBIx::Class is just too > > hard, IMO. The learning curve is WAY steep. > > +1 > > Regards, > -- > MJ Ray (slef) > Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small > worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ > (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Sun May 25 05:37:05 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 05:37:05 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: References: <633770.11346.qm@web86605.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4836ea67.5w26Wrdw+6rR1Oxd%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <48370ff5.ITz1uTHXhyskloTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: <4838ECF1.809@cosmicperl.com> Paul Makepeace wrote: > CPAN dependencies are for some a > total non-issue, others a crippling one. Funnily enough I've been working on a solution to make CPAN deps a non or at least much smaller issue for everyone. Still early days yet, but I'm sure I'll be opening a debate about CPAN and my ideas pretty soon. > (In case anyone thinks I'm dinging perl, I do really like it, and > stake the majority of my anticipated livelihood on it. I'm just > realistic about its shortcomings :-)) > That's why so many of us are looking forward to Perl 6 ;-) As for how tricky things can be in Perl 5, I think it greatly depends on which modules you choose. Lyle From aaron.trevena at gmail.com Sun May 25 20:29:17 2008 From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena) Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 20:29:17 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: 2008/5/24 Paul Makepeace : > DBIx::Class is certainly powerful, and the dev team is superbly smart; the > list is friendly & helpful too. That said, I find it's substantially more > complicated (versus complex) and difficult to use, esp if you have an SQL > background. You have to really jump through hoops to get some basic (in SQL) > stuff done, and only really recently the docs have got to the point where > you don't have to be a core developer to make full use of it. > > Having worked with Cat & DBIC for 2+ years I'm still not clear that a "fuck > it, just use SQL with some handy convenience layer" wouldn't be a better > solution. You can always grab a database handle from the schema (or even fetch your own). I found it had a steeper learning curve that C::DBI or RollYourOwn, but it's already reaping benefits on this project in a matter of weeks. Having said that, I wish it was as easy (or more accurately more documented with plenty of examples) to tell it to use some hardcoded SQL statements or fragments. >> * The dispatching doesn't work as well as either Maypole or Catalyst >> (again as far as I could see) >> * The Templating system seems roughly equivilent to Mason ( " " " " " >> "), certainly not in the same league as TT (which I believe is being >> ported to python) > > The dominant impression I got from the perl audience when Django was > presented alongside Catalyst/TT in London a while back, was "OMG it's TT". > No-one I heard mentioned mason. Mason is perl; Django template language & TT > are distinct mini-languages. Quite different. I was thinking more of the way components are used in it - the examples I saw were more like Mason than TT IMHO, if you ignored the syntax. >> The scaffold/admin thing looks quite cool, slightly more DWIM than >> Catalyst or Maypole, but not "way ahead". > > Well IMO it is way ahead. There is nothing like that in Catalyst, even if > you look at what Django had over two years ago. Care to provide any quick tips at what to look for ? just a list of keywords to google will do. > Sorry to cop-out but I can't be arsed to go into this because I'd say the > choice of languages or frameworks or other fodder that drives so many of > these ultimately, ahem, narrowly focussed discussions are quite separate > from the business drivers. Didn't you say almost exactly opposite earlier in the thread ? i.e. looking for a perl equivilent to web.py (presumably because that would make better use of the skills available. > I find those business issues just so much more interesting, but that's just > me :-) Meh, I find business politics pretty dull, business problems to technical solutions are more interesting. I'm really surprised how challenging and interesting my current gig has been, especially after having fun working on aviation briefing systems. A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting From greg at mccarroll.org.uk Sun May 25 23:58:10 2008 From: greg at mccarroll.org.uk (Greg McCarroll) Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 23:58:10 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: <4838ECF1.809@cosmicperl.com> References: <633770.11346.qm@web86605.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4836ea67.5w26Wrdw+6rR1Oxd%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <48370ff5.ITz1uTHXhyskloTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <4838ECF1.809@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <20080525225810.GA6805@mccarroll.org.uk> On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 05:37:05AM +0100, Lyle wrote: > Paul Makepeace wrote: > > CPAN dependencies are for some a > > total non-issue, others a crippling one. > > Funnily enough I've been working on a solution to make CPAN deps a non > or at least much smaller issue for everyone. Still early days yet, but > I'm sure I'll be opening a debate about CPAN and my ideas pretty soon. > I could be wrong, but I think it was the Perl Advocacy list that was discussing in a blue sky fashion the future of CPAN.pm/CPAN recently, http://lists.cpan.org/showlist.cgi?name=advocacy G_. From mjr at phonecoop.coop Mon May 26 09:07:08 2008 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 09:07:08 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: References: <633770.11346.qm@web86605.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4836ea67.5w26Wrdw+6rR1Oxd%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <48370ff5.ITz1uTHXhyskloTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: <483a6fac.eegImX1adOa/EmKw%mjr@phonecoop.coop> "Paul Makepeace" wrote: > On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 7:41 PM, MJ Ray wrote: > > Well, I've outlined the other reasons, but I'm also amazed no-one's > > already done it, as this is the sort of stuff that Perl's usually > > pretty fantastic for and I've seen ports to other languages of the > > simple framework model. > > How do you think Perl is good for web frameworks? [...] It doesn't annoy the hell out of me like PHP (PHP 5 finally brings something like DBI's prepare() to every host?), most of our workers and associates can program in perl, we have a pretty good idea where to find more perl programmers, all of the hosting platforms we're using support perl to some extent, any time spent in perl-based solutions will probably pay off in other work and we already know quite a lot of the available libraries. If it was down to language purity, we'd be using a lisp-based solution, but like your other message suggested, the above business concerns override it a bit. By the way, about python: Ruby seemed to me like what Python should've been. Somehow I caught myself up on Python's snags (some numbers and other things that aren't objects IIRC) in a way I don't with perl - maybe because perl will usually do stuff even the "wrong" way. Hope that explains, -- MJ Ray (slef) Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ (Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237 From david at cantrell.org.uk Mon May 26 11:12:08 2008 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 11:12:08 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: <20080526101208.GC15570@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 09:00:22PM +0100, Paul Makepeace wrote: > DBIx::Class is certainly powerful, and the dev team is superbly smart; the > list is friendly & helpful too. That said, I find it's substantially more > complicated (versus complex) and difficult to use, esp if you have an SQL > background. You have to really jump through hoops to get some basic (in SQL) > stuff done Yes indeed. Doing basic queries is a pain in the arse. However, it really comes into its own for more complex stuff. eg, at work we have some Stuff for it that completely transparently keeps an audit trail of every change to a record. But as far as the application is concerned, you're still just updating and deleting records as normal. Class::DBI is the same, although it's perhaps a little easier to get started, but the drawback is that to do the more complex stuff seems to require delving into undocumented parts of the API that are meant to be private, but which we're assured are stable. Yuck. -- David Cantrell | A machine for turning tea into grumpiness There is no one true indentation style, But if there were K&R would be Its Prophets. Peace be upon Their Holy Beards. From something at amias.org.uk Tue May 27 12:27:12 2008 From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 12:27:12 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: <483714BE.1060108@cosmicperl.com> References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <483714BE.1060108@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <1211887632.6370.1.camel@home> On Fri, 2008-05-23 at 20:02 +0100, Lyle wrote: > Still for simplicity using CGI::Application which utilizes CGI.pm and > HTML::Template, I think it'll be hard to beat. noooo , i thought HTML::Template was dead . kill it kill it kill it ! Seriously though , have a look at Template Toolkit its much better. Toodle-pip Amias -- Freelance programming , consultancy and hardware builds blog.amias.org.uk * www.amias.org.uk * www.ecotalk.org.uk From nigel at turbo10.com Tue May 27 14:21:44 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 14:21:44 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: <1211887632.6370.1.camel@home> References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <483714BE.1060108@cosmicperl.com> <1211887632.6370.1.camel@home> Message-ID: <50fec4060805270621k438a121dy114677904a170341@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Here are some modules that do the trick for me: DBIx::Simple [1] ============ I use DBIx::Simple to talk to the database because of its brilliant 'query' method --- which sums up the whole philosophy of the module .... $db->query(<what_you_want_back(); The query() method lets you do anything with the database and ask for anything you want back --- it assumes the programmer knows SQL and otherwise keeps out of your way. If you're comfortable with SQL then DBIx::Simple is worth a look. Template::Simple [2] =============== The flipside of the database input problem is how do you get data out? I've always thought there should be "no code in the template" - as it adds another layer of complexity and processing. So when Uri Guttman bellowed "No Code in the Template!!" during a lightning talk at YAPC::NA I sat up in my chair [3]. He described an elegant module that in 300 lines of code solved 99.9999% of the templating problem. Despite the audience groaning, "not another templating module," I could see this module was an improvement on my homegrown module so we sponsored Uri to release it to CPAN as Template::Simple. Web::Simple [4] ============ As for a web framework I think less is more here too and I'm interested to see HTTP::Engine on CPAN. There is currently no Web::Simple on CPAN but something could potentially fit in with HTTP::Engine to provide just a web context with internal Request / Response objects (e.g., Servlets). I'm imagining a minimal module that is framework-agnostic. At the moment we use a homegrown pure-Perl webserver[5] and a very simple WebContext to bind requests and response - it works well in combination with DBIx::Simple and Template::Simple. Just some ideas for the meme pool ... NIge p.s. looking forward to having a pint tonight [1] http://search.cpan.org/~juerd/DBIx-Simple-1.32/lib/DBIx/Simple.pm [2] http://search.cpan.org/~uri/Template-Simple-0.02/lib/Template/Simple.pm [3] http://www.sysarch.com/tiny_template/slides/index.html [4] Imagine-ware [5] Sparky - http://blog.thegoo.org/2006/02/sparky-powering-goo.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080527/81a47237/attachment-0001.html From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Tue May 27 14:32:50 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 14:32:50 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: <1211887632.6370.1.camel@home> References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <483714BE.1060108@cosmicperl.com> <1211887632.6370.1.camel@home> Message-ID: <483C0D82.2080508@cosmicperl.com> Amias Channer wrote: > On Fri, 2008-05-23 at 20:02 +0100, Lyle wrote: > >> Still for simplicity using CGI::Application which utilizes CGI.pm and >> HTML::Template, I think it'll be hard to beat. >> > > noooo , i thought HTML::Template was dead . kill it kill it kill it ! > > Seriously though , have a look at Template Toolkit its much better. > > I've got the TT book, I've had a quick look though. When I looked at some benchmarks online TT used quite a bit of memory. For simple stuff I'm more than happy with HTML::Template. Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Tue May 27 14:37:01 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 14:37:01 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Get together Reminder, Tonight! Message-ID: <483C0E7D.1050900@cosmicperl.com> Hi All, Just a gentle reminder that the get together is tonight, 7pm Watershed Bristol. Lyle -- CosmicPerl.com CGI Scripts Lyle Hopkins "How can I help?" From something at amias.org.uk Tue May 27 16:59:49 2008 From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 16:59:49 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: <483C0D82.2080508@cosmicperl.com> References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <483714BE.1060108@cosmicperl.com> <1211887632.6370.1.camel@home> <483C0D82.2080508@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <1211903989.6370.45.camel@home> On Tue, 2008-05-27 at 14:32 +0100, Lyle wrote: > Amias Channer wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-05-23 at 20:02 +0100, Lyle wrote: > > > >> Still for simplicity using CGI::Application which utilizes CGI.pm and > >> HTML::Template, I think it'll be hard to beat. > >> > > > > noooo , i thought HTML::Template was dead . kill it kill it kill it ! > > > > Seriously though , have a look at Template Toolkit its much better. > > > > > > I've got the TT book, I've had a quick look though. When I looked at > some benchmarks online TT used quite a bit of memory. For simple stuff > I'm more than happy with HTML::Template. 1. How big is the HTML::Template HASH that stores the same datastructure i bet they didn't include that in the benchmark. 2. Templates don't stay simple IME and HTML::Template becomes unmanageable very quickly. Toodle-pip Amias -- Freelance programming , consultancy and hardware builds blog.amias.org.uk * www.amias.org.uk * www.ecotalk.org.uk From dave at dave.org.uk Tue May 27 18:11:30 2008 From: dave at dave.org.uk (Dave Cross) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 18:11:30 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: <483C0D82.2080508@cosmicperl.com> References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <483714BE.1060108@cosmicperl.com> <1211887632.6370.1.camel@home> <483C0D82.2080508@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <483C40C2.1050007@dave.org.uk> Lyle wrote: > Amias Channer wrote: >> On Fri, 2008-05-23 at 20:02 +0100, Lyle wrote: >> >>> Still for simplicity using CGI::Application which utilizes CGI.pm and >>> HTML::Template, I think it'll be hard to beat. >>> >> noooo , i thought HTML::Template was dead . kill it kill it kill it ! >> >> Seriously though , have a look at Template Toolkit its much better. > > I've got the TT book, I've had a quick look though. Excellent. Please buy more copies. They make great presents. Dave... [not biased... honest] From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Wed May 28 00:14:40 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 00:14:40 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Thanks everyone Message-ID: <483C95E0.4040805@cosmicperl.com> Hi All, Thanks to everyone who made it. I think it's a really good start and there were some really good ideas. Looking forward to the next meet in bath. Thanks again. Lyle From nigel at turbo10.com Wed May 28 00:27:23 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 00:27:23 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Thanks everyone In-Reply-To: <483C95E0.4040805@cosmicperl.com> References: <483C95E0.4040805@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <50fec4060805271627h88aede3x543bf57979f7cbea@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for organising it! Hope we can get a similar turnout in Bath. Nige 2008/5/28 Lyle : > Hi All, > Thanks to everyone who made it. I think it's a really good start and > there were some really good ideas. Looking forward to the next meet in > bath. > > > Thanks again. > > > Lyle > > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080528/b1df536c/attachment.html From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Wed May 28 00:30:23 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 00:30:23 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: <20080525225810.GA6805@mccarroll.org.uk> References: <633770.11346.qm@web86605.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4836ea67.5w26Wrdw+6rR1Oxd%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <48370ff5.ITz1uTHXhyskloTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <4838ECF1.809@cosmicperl.com> <20080525225810.GA6805@mccarroll.org.uk> Message-ID: <483C998F.3050004@cosmicperl.com> Greg McCarroll wrote: > On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 05:37:05AM +0100, Lyle wrote: > > I could be wrong, but I think it was the Perl Advocacy list that was > discussing in a blue sky fashion the future of CPAN.pm/CPAN recently, > > http://lists.cpan.org/showlist.cgi?name=advocacy > Hmm.. Not sure if it was, my search for cpan posts from this year didn't bring it up:- http://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=advocacy%40perl.org&q=date%3A%5B20080101+TO+20081231%5D+cpan Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Wed May 28 01:25:01 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 01:25:01 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Informal tech meet Message-ID: <483CA65D.3010805@cosmicperl.com> Hi All, Something I got from tonight is that everyones experience and knowledge of Perl is different. We are all using Perl for different things and we all have our own way of doing it (albeit loosly based on PBP). At a social environment we only get small glimpses of what people are doing, I think an informal tech meet will go a long way to us understanding our different takes on Perl. I propose (actually I think it was Nige's idea) that we each put together a 5-10 min talk quickly covering how we got into perl, what we use it for, and the mistakes / solutions we've made along the way. If you were at the meet tonight you'll know that I'm personally not too keen on public speaking, but I'm willing to give this a go, so I'm hoping you will to ;) This'll be informal... so like the meet... but we each have our own little bit to present. Lyle From psykx.out at googlemail.com Wed May 28 02:11:50 2008 From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (psykx.out) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 02:11:50 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Thanks everyone In-Reply-To: <483C95E0.4040805@cosmicperl.com> References: <483C95E0.4040805@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <483CB156.5010501@googlemail.com> Sorry I couldn't make it. I long weekend in wales and then work left me for dead. Max From alex at alexfrancis.org.uk Wed May 28 10:58:13 2008 From: alex at alexfrancis.org.uk (Alex Francis) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 10:58:13 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Thanks everyone In-Reply-To: <483C95E0.4040805@cosmicperl.com> References: <483C95E0.4040805@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <16afc9550805280258s7d2b02e4rcbc4a97110414567@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 12:14 AM, Lyle wrote: > Hi All, > Thanks to everyone who made it. I think it's a really good start and > there were some really good ideas. Looking forward to the next meet in bath. > Hi Lyle, thanks for organising this, I had fun and it was great to meet everyone. Sorry I turned up late and left early! And do remind me it's my round next time! Alex From alex at alexfrancis.org.uk Wed May 28 11:07:38 2008 From: alex at alexfrancis.org.uk (Alex Francis) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 11:07:38 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Informal tech meet In-Reply-To: <483CA65D.3010805@cosmicperl.com> References: <483CA65D.3010805@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <16afc9550805280307v51fb35r7024f3841df4a5d@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 1:25 AM, Lyle wrote: > Hi All, > ... > I propose (actually I think it was Nige's idea) that we each put > together a 5-10 min talk quickly covering how we got into perl, what we > use it for, and the mistakes / solutions we've made along the way. If > you were at the meet tonight you'll know that I'm personally not too > keen on public speaking, but I'm willing to give this a go, so I'm > hoping you will to ;) > Sounds like a good idea. If anyone reading was not at the meet last night and is put off by the idea of talking in front of lots of people - well, there were only 6 (Lyle?) people there last night and everyone was very nice! Alex From aaron.trevena at gmail.com Wed May 28 13:02:26 2008 From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 13:02:26 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: 2008/5/24 Paul Makepeace : > DBIx::Class is certainly powerful, and the dev team is superbly smart; the > list is friendly & helpful too. That said, I find it's substantially more > complicated (versus complex) and difficult to use, esp if you have an SQL > background. You have to really jump through hoops to get some basic (in SQL) > stuff done, and only really recently the docs have got to the point where > you don't have to be a core developer to make full use of it. Amongst other gems, you can find how to use raw SQL for pretty much everything in DBIx::Class in the Cookbook. http://search.cpan.org/~ash/DBIx-Class-0.08010/lib/DBIx/Class/Manual/Cookbook.pod#Arbitrary_SQL_through_a_custom_ResultSource I tend to have that page and the manual table of contents page open whenever I'm working with DBIx::Class. A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting From rob at avbrief.com Wed May 28 13:14:56 2008 From: rob at avbrief.com (Rob Edwards) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 13:14:56 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: >> That said, I find it's substantially more >> complicated (versus complex) and difficult to use, esp if you have an SQL >> background. You have to really jump through hoops to get some basic (in SQL) >> stuff done, and only really recently the docs have got to the point where >> you don't have to be a core developer to make full use of it. > Although I dont have much of a background in SQL I couldn't disagree more, I think it makes everything a lot easier. A lot of thought has obviously gone in to the interface to make it really intuitive, a great improvement on CDBI. I hate SQL amongst code unless its performance critical (at my work its generally isn't) I like to keep it abstracted where ever possible. Rob From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Wed May 28 18:01:25 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 18:01:25 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] Informal tech meet In-Reply-To: <16afc9550805280307v51fb35r7024f3841df4a5d@mail.gmail.com> References: <483CA65D.3010805@cosmicperl.com> <16afc9550805280307v51fb35r7024f3841df4a5d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <483D8FE5.6040204@cosmicperl.com> Alex Francis wrote: > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 1:25 AM, Lyle wrote: > > Sounds like a good idea. > > If anyone reading was not at the meet last night and is put off by the > idea of talking in front of lots of people - well, there were only 6 > (Lyle?) people there last night and everyone was very nice! > Yup, just 6. A good round number. Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Thu May 29 02:17:42 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 02:17:42 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN module patch Message-ID: <483E0436.1030405@cosmicperl.com> Hi All, I've got a bit of frustration about a CPAN module I've patched. I've emailed the author a couple of times, firstly with some major speed enhancements as I found the module performed poorly with large databases, second with some bug fixes to other parts of his code. I've not heard anything back. I've emailed different authors similar things in the past and they've usually been very grateful, or at least acknowledged me. I'm wondering what steps I should take next... Either:- a) Leave well alone b) Release my own version of the module c) ??? I'd prefer c), but I'm not sure what it is :) Lyle From nigel at turbo10.com Thu May 29 07:39:32 2008 From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 07:39:32 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN module patch In-Reply-To: <483E0436.1030405@cosmicperl.com> References: <483E0436.1030405@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <50fec4060805282339g50c39cc9ne92e832c992785dd@mail.gmail.com> HI Lyle, a) Leave well alone > b) Release my own version of the module > c) ??? > > I'd prefer c), but I'm not sure what it is :) You could .... c) cut and paste the source of the module into your own local module and create your own patched version (provided the copyright licence is OK with this) Nige -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.bristolbath.org/pipermail/bristolbathpm/attachments/20080529/3c211998/attachment.html From david at cantrell.org.uk Thu May 29 08:45:29 2008 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 08:45:29 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN module patch In-Reply-To: <483E0436.1030405@cosmicperl.com> References: <483E0436.1030405@cosmicperl.com> Message-ID: <20080529074529.GA31620@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 02:17:42AM +0100, Lyle wrote: > I've got a bit of frustration about a CPAN module I've patched. I've > emailed the author a couple of times, firstly with some major speed > enhancements as I found the module performed poorly with large > databases, second with some bug fixes to other parts of his code. I've > not heard anything back. How long ago did you email him? Waiting a month at least would be reasonable, as people do crazy things like go on holiday. And have you tried contacting him via any other email addresses or places like perlmonks or rt.cpan? > I've emailed different authors similar things in the past and they've > usually been very grateful, or at least acknowledged me. I'm wondering > what steps I should take next... > Either:- > a) Leave well alone > b) Release my own version of the module > c) ??? Contact the modules at perl.org mailing list, tell them what you've done to try to contact the author, and ask them to twiddle the bits of CPAN that make you a co-maintainer so that you can upload your patched version. -- David Cantrell | Reality Engineer, Ministry of Information Longum iter est per praecepta, breve et efficax per exempla. From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Thu May 29 10:33:19 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 10:33:19 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN module patch In-Reply-To: <50fec4060805282339g50c39cc9ne92e832c992785dd@mail.gmail.com> References: <483E0436.1030405@cosmicperl.com> <50fec4060805282339g50c39cc9ne92e832c992785dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <483E785F.1020907@cosmicperl.com> Nigel Hamilton wrote: > You could .... > > c) cut and paste the source of the module into your own local module > and create your own patched version (provided the copyright licence is > OK with this) > This is what I've done. But it's frustrating that my patches could be helping others. Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Thu May 29 10:37:11 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 10:37:11 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] CPAN module patch In-Reply-To: <20080529074529.GA31620@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <483E0436.1030405@cosmicperl.com> <20080529074529.GA31620@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <483E7947.60106@cosmicperl.com> David Cantrell wrote: > On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 02:17:42AM +0100, Lyle wrote: > > > How long ago did you email him? Waiting a month at least would be > reasonable, as people do crazy things like go on holiday. And have you > tried contacting him via any other email addresses or places like > perlmonks or rt.cpan? > Been about 4 months since my first email, and a month since the second. I haven't been able to find another email address for him, but I'll give Perlmonks and rt a go. > Contact the modules at perl.org mailing list, tell them what you've done to > try to contact the author, and ask them to twiddle the bits of CPAN that > make you a co-maintainer so that you can upload your patched version. > I'll give this a go in a month or so if I still haven't heard from him after perlmonks, etc. Lyle From webmaster at cosmicperl.com Thu May 29 12:30:24 2008 From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 12:30:24 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: References: <633770.11346.qm@web86605.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4836ea67.5w26Wrdw+6rR1Oxd%mjr@phonecoop.coop> <48370ff5.ITz1uTHXhyskloTT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: <483E93D0.2070802@cosmicperl.com> Paul Makepeace wrote: > How do you think Perl is good for web frameworks? I think it's ideal because it is so good at doing other things as well. Like it came up in the meet, if you have a web app a puny language like PHP may be usable at first and appear a good solution. But as soon as your app grows you're going to end up doing more and more admin scripting to manage the data and other parts. Certainly nothing will beat perl at this. I've seen people try to use PHP for syadmin, it's just not cut out for it. So you're better off using Perl for everything rather than a PHP (or whatever) front end with Perl, etc, in the background. Perl wasn't specifically designed for web frameworks, but like a lot of other things it does the job very well, and in my opinion is the best solution :) Lyle From paulm at paulm.com Thu May 29 12:48:03 2008 From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 12:48:03 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Rob Edwards wrote: >>> That said, I find it's substantially more >>> complicated (versus complex) and difficult to use, esp if you have an SQL >>> background. You have to really jump through hoops to get some basic (in SQL) >>> stuff done, and only really recently the docs have got to the point where >>> you don't have to be a core developer to make full use of it. >> > > Although I dont have much of a background in SQL I couldn't disagree > more, I think it makes everything a lot easier. A lot of thought has > obviously gone in to the interface to make it really intuitive, a > great improvement on CDBI. It definitely is a big improvement. I'm not knocking it hard, I use it in a project and don't regret it. Once you're into the territory of complex queries though it gets ugly, fast. I'd be curious the kinds of things you're doing with DBIC. Obviously I can't speak for anyone else but I suspect if you got good at SQL you'd find the same thing. While I appreciate it's possible to get DBIC to do it in a somewhat clunky way (bind => [$arg1, $arg2] is hardly too literate) it's not pretty or elegant. It _is_ pretty & elegant for quite a decent subset of SQL though. As I say I am impressed & it's not a big ding or anything. I don't understand the objection to having SQL in code. If I pull out data out of a hash I don't necessarily have to abstract that into some file elsewhere. Why should I do that if I'm pulling data out of a database? P > > I hate SQL amongst code unless its performance critical (at my work > its generally isn't) I like to keep it abstracted where ever possible. > > Rob > _______________________________________________ > BristolBathPM mailing list > BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org > http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm > From aaron.trevena at gmail.com Thu May 29 13:06:11 2008 From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 13:06:11 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: 2008/5/29 Paul Makepeace : > I don't understand the objection to having SQL in code. If I pull out > data out of a hash I don't necessarily have to abstract that into some > file elsewhere. Why should I do that if I'm pulling data out of a > database? It's not the pulling the data out of a cache, it's the scattering of SQL all over the place that requires changing by hand when the schema is updated or code is refactored, etc. Not to mention (oops) the big ugly chunks of SQL you can get making the code harder to read, and can be unwieldy - especially when some of it is built on the fly (and the building on the fly gets more and more complex). You don't have to abstract it with ORM or SQL::Abstract (although I use the latter heavily), you can embed it in a function (tucked away at the bottom of your code, easy to find and update, re-usable) or stash it in a "phrasebook" A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting From david at cantrell.org.uk Thu May 29 14:00:51 2008 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 14:00:51 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] DBIx::Class (was: web.py in perl?) In-Reply-To: References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: <483EA903.7060004@cantrell.org.uk> Paul Makepeace wrote: > It definitely is a big improvement. I'm not knocking it hard, I use it > in a project and don't regret it. Once you're into the territory of > complex queries though it gets ugly, fast. It also gets ugly if you want to do anything other than basic create/update/delete/search. It's particularly hideous if you need class methods whose internals touch the database, because the class itself doesn't know about the database connection. Saying this inside a class method: $schema->resultset("Foo")->create({...}) (did I remember that right? it's certainly something long-winded anyway) when you should be able to just say: __PACKAGE__->create({...}) is bloody annoying cos it means that you have to keep track of the database connection yourself and pass it around instead of the classes just Doing The Right Thing like they do in Class::DBI. -- David Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive There are many different types of sausages. The best are from the north of England. The wurst are from Germany. -- seen in alt.2eggs... From jamie at shareable.org Thu May 29 17:42:58 2008 From: jamie at shareable.org (Jamie Lokier) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 17:42:58 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <483711a6.PYSqEsng95NDb4wT%mjr@phonecoop.coop> Message-ID: <20080529164258.GE21610@shareable.org> Aaron Trevena wrote: > it's the scattering of SQL all over the place that requires changing > by hand when the schema is updated or code is refactored, etc. I'm curious, as a non-user of these classes - how does a schema change not get reflected in how you have to call the classes? It seems to me that simple schema changes like adding a column or changed field sizes don't require any change to SQL either - if you wrote it sensibly. Similarly, classes which do some abstraction will also have some schema changes which don't affect how you call the classes, and some where you do have to update those calls all over your code - same problem as Aaron says is avoided. Seems to me that the main protection against this is to keep the database calls in one module in your application - with that module's API matching the logic of the application as cleanly as possible. I'm not seeing how whether that app module uses some sQL, or various abstraction classes, makes all that much difference to the work involved when schema is changed. But I'm sure it does. Can someone enlighten me? Cheers :-) -- Jamie From aaron.trevena at gmail.com Fri May 30 08:56:24 2008 From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 08:56:24 +0100 Subject: [Bristolbathpm] web.py in perl? In-Reply-To: <20080529164258.GE21610@shareable.org> References: <615277.82222.qm@web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20080529164258.GE21610@shareable.org> Message-ID: 2008/5/29 Jamie Lokier : > Aaron Trevena wrote: >> it's the scattering of SQL all over the place that requires changing >> by hand when the schema is updated or code is refactored, etc. > > I'm curious, as a non-user of these classes - how does a schema change > not get reflected in how you have to call the classes? > > It seems to me that simple schema changes like adding a column or > changed field sizes don't require any change to SQL either - if you > wrote it sensibly. Similarly, classes which do some abstraction will > also have some schema changes which don't affect how you call the > classes, and some where you do have to update those calls all over > your code - same problem as Aaron says is avoided. Adding a new field is a great deal easier, when you just specify that a class now has an additional attribute, now it can be accessed anywhere with 1 single line of code changed. You simple can't do that easily without writing your own db layer, and tracking metadata, in which case it's usually quicker to make use of an ORM or the type of tools that are used in/with ORM like SQL::Abstract, etc. > Seems to me that the main protection against this is to keep the > database calls in one module in your application - with that module's > API matching the logic of the application as cleanly as possible. This tends to result in an unwieldy and hard to maintain piece of code that attempts to do everything for everybody, I've seen several of these in almost every case, you'd be better off using an off-the-cpan module (not necessarily ORM, there are other options in DBIx:: namespace). > I'm not seeing how whether that app module uses some sQL, or various > abstraction classes, makes all that much difference to the work > involved when schema is changed. But I'm sure it does. Can someone > enlighten me? In my experience it makes a big difference, helps avoid big-ball-of-mud monolithic I-Am-The-Database packages written in house, makes schema changes very very simple, and requires little code. A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting