From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Sun Nov  2 13:53:56 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:53:56 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Time to loose Perl 5.6 compatibility?
Message-ID: <490DB0F4.5080301@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  I've always tried to make my stuff backwards compatible to Perl 5.6. 
Now I'm looking at updating the OOP routines, moose is a bit of a no go 
for me as it relys on XS Perl modules. But it seems that mouse can be 
pure Perl and is a good substitute. The problem with that is it isn't 
5.6 compatible.

Considering I like to give me stuff as much reach as possible, do you 
think it's time to use mouse and give up on 5.6?

Anyone know of a way of checking what % of web hosts are still on Perl 5.6?


Lyle


From alex at alexfrancis.org.uk  Sun Nov  2 18:47:37 2008
From: alex at alexfrancis.org.uk (Alex Francis)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 18:47:37 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Time to loose Perl 5.6 compatibility?
In-Reply-To: <490DB0F4.5080301@cosmicperl.com>
References: <490DB0F4.5080301@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550811021047l33a7952cjd5ca9d226ca6217f@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:53 PM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>  I've always tried to make my stuff backwards compatible to Perl 5.6.
> Now I'm looking at updating the OOP routines, moose is a bit of a no go
> for me as it relys on XS Perl modules. But it seems that mouse can be
> pure Perl and is a good substitute. The problem with that is it isn't
> 5.6 compatible.
>
> Considering I like to give me stuff as much reach as possible, do you
> think it's time to use mouse and give up on 5.6?
>
> Anyone know of a way of checking what % of web hosts are still on Perl 5.6?
>
>
> Lyle
>

I hadn't heard of Mouse, thanks for the pointer. No idea about the 5.6
question tho. Maybe it's something you could patch in Mouse if you
find you need to?
Alex

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Mon Nov  3 01:24:22 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 01:24:22 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Time to loose Perl 5.6 compatibility?
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550811021047l33a7952cjd5ca9d226ca6217f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <490DB0F4.5080301@cosmicperl.com>
	<16afc9550811021047l33a7952cjd5ca9d226ca6217f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <490E52C6.2080904@cosmicperl.com>

Alex Francis wrote:
> I hadn't heard of Mouse, thanks for the pointer. No idea about the 5.6
> question tho. Maybe it's something you could patch in Mouse if you
> find you need to

Looking at the CPAN testers results, it seems 5.6 isn't failing on 
much... Maybe a creating a working patch could be the next group 
challenge? :)


Lyle


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Mon Nov  3 01:25:36 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 01:25:36 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Last meet - Laura audition update
Message-ID: <490E5310.4090807@cosmicperl.com>

Hi Guys,
  For all that were at the last meet, you may want to know that Laura 
passed the audition and is now the newest member of the Dark Angles 
dance crew!

Well done Laura :)


Lyle

From psykx.out at googlemail.com  Mon Nov  3 10:41:05 2008
From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (max psykx)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 10:41:05 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Last meet - Laura audition update
In-Reply-To: <490E5310.4090807@cosmicperl.com>
References: <490E5310.4090807@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <d2cea6400811030241n18d6bcdbx25a9b1df3bd7de55@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, well done!

Max

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Tue Nov  4 15:30:57 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 15:30:57 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] [Fwd: [ANNOUNCE] Ye Olde Perl[e] Mo[u]ngeurs Of
 Londinium Worshoppe Schedule of Events]
Message-ID: <49106AB1.70809@cosmicperl.com>

Hear ye. Hear ye.

To all Mo[u]guers Perl[e], to my Lords, Ladies and Gentlemen, to all 
denziens throughout the lands of faire Albion, upon whose shores waves 
of grace are blessed, I give thee pause to taketh note. At this 
location, upon this time, and at a place well suited to thee for 
communication oft, and with, internets blessed, thou canst find the 
[proposed] Schedule of Events, for the Workshoppe of Londinium to be 
held on Saturday, the twenty-ninth day of November in this year of our 
Lord two thousand and eight.

Thy attention is turneth to:

http://www.markkeating.me.uk/lpw2008/Schedule.pdf

If thou wisheth to raise a concern then at thy pleasure, though perhaps 
to some otherwise non dream't of consternation, address they words to 
mdk(at)shadowcat.co.uk, where no doubt they shall be read upon, 
remarketh upon and then shredded and fed to a cat.[1]

If thou seeketh to complain then simply follow these three steps:

First: writeth thy complaint on finest Egyptium Vellum using a quill 
from the Scottish Sea eagle in thine own blood, affixing a seal made 
from gristle of your own flesh.
Second: Assign one of thy lesser servants to tarry to Lord Gregory (head 
of l.pm)[2] and seeketh from him the secret addresses wherein the dark 
masters who control the secret writings of Perl[e] dwell.
Third: Stuff they complaint down the throat of a freshly slaughtered 
goat and cast it upon the sacrificial pyre while recounting sixteen of 
thy favourite memes backwards into a mirror.

Thy complaint shouldst then reach the correct Seraphim who shalt wing it 
to its rightful home.

Thy thanks as always shower me with much greatness.

Mark

[1] I will of course read them and do all I can to aid, and/or assist 
your query.
[2] Please don't really bother Greg, well not until the day of the 
conference at least, and then only after he has quaffed at least five 
fine ales.

-- 
Mark Keating BA (Hons)              |  Writer, Photographer, Cat-Herder
Managing Director                   |  Shadowcat Systems Limited
Director/Secretary                  |  Enlightened Perl Organisation
http://www.shadowcat.co.uk          |  http://www.enlightenedperl.org
http://linkedin.com/in/markkeating  | 'Sufficiently Advanced Technology'



-- 
CosmicPerl.com CGI Scripts <http://www.cosmicperl.com> 	Lyle Hopkins
"How can I help?"


From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Tue Nov  4 16:08:51 2008
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Tue,  4 Nov 2008 16:08:51 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] [ANNOUNCE] Ye Olde Perl[e] Mo[u]ngeurs Of
 Londinium Worshoppe Schedule of Events
References: <49106AB1.70809@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20081104160851.519.9400@edison.ioppublishing.com>

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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Tue Nov  4 16:22:48 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 16:22:48 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] [ANNOUNCE] Ye Olde Perl[e] Mo[u]ngeurs Of
 Londinium Worshoppe Schedule of Events
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20081104160851.519.9400@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <49106AB1.70809@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081104160851.519.9400@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <491076D8.8020503@cosmicperl.com>

Peter Haworth wrote:
> Looks good. So, is anyone else is going, and can I get a lift with
> them? I could go on the train, but I don't expect cheap tickets for
> suitable times to be available for much longer.
>   

I'll probably be going down Friday and staying in a cheap hotel or B&B, 
although I need to check the dates and make sure someone can look after 
my dogs. I'll let you know when I'm definite if that sounds good to you.


Lyle

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Thu Nov  6 02:03:51 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 02:03:51 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] [Fwd: [pm_groups] Fwd: IMPORTANT - help us estimate
 the size of the Catalyst user base]
Message-ID: <49125087.9030000@cosmicperl.com>

From: Kieren Diment <zarquon at cpan.org>

Date: November 5, 2008 7:51:35 PM CST

Hi All,

Apologies for the cross-posting, I'm trying to representatives of as
many organisations as possible who use Catalyst as possible to reply
to this email.

We need your assistance to help estimate the number of users of
Catalyst.  Matt Trout and I have written a proposal for a Catalyst
book, and while we have a well known, credible publisher interested,
they want the assurance that the market for the book is large enough
to make it worth their while.

If you could take the time to provide the following information (I've
set reply-to to me for your confidentiality, and so that we don't
pollute the list with this stuff) this would be really useful.  I'll
also let you know the results of this survey when I have them.

I will treat this information in confidence, and will only use
aggregated data so that you or your organisation will not be
identifiable in the report I make on this data.

There are about 1000 subscribers on the catalyst mailing list, and I'd
hope for a response rate of about 10% (i.e. about 100 replies).  The
information I'm collecting is likely to result in an outcome that is
useful to you in a commercial way, so your participation would be much
appreciated.

Please try to ensure that only one person from your organisation
answers these questions.

1.  What country are you in?

2.  How many people are on your team?

3.  How many of those people are writing code with Catalyst?

3a.  If there are non Catalyst coders on your team, how many of the
whole team would you like to be writing Catalyst code?

4.  How many people using Catalyst on your team are subscribers to the
Catalyst mailing list?

5.  How many people writing Catalyst code on your team use the
#catalyst irc channel on irc.perl.org?

6.  These two questions are about the potential for the growth of
Catalyst usage in your organisation.

6a.  How many people do you think will be using Catalyst in your
organisation in 12 months time?

6b.  How many people do you think will be using Catalyst in your
organisation in 2 years time?

Thanks for your cooperation.  If you know of any teams who are users
of Catalyst but that do not subscribe to the Catalyst mailing list, or
are on the IRC channel, please forward this email to them.

Thanks.

Kieren Diment

--
Request pm.org Technical Support via support at pm.org

pm_groups mailing list
pm_groups at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pm_groups



-- 
CosmicPerl.com CGI Scripts <http://www.cosmicperl.com> 	Lyle Hopkins
"How can I help?"


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Thu Nov  6 13:40:42 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 13:40:42 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] [ANNOUNCE] Ye Olde Perl[e] Mo[u]ngeurs Of
 Londinium Worshoppe Schedule of Events
In-Reply-To: <491076D8.8020503@cosmicperl.com>
References: <49106AB1.70809@cosmicperl.com>	<PGM.20081104160851.519.9400@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<491076D8.8020503@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <4912F3DA.7030400@cosmicperl.com>

Lyle wrote:
> Peter Haworth wrote:
>   
>> Looks good. So, is anyone else is going, and can I get a lift with
>> them? I could go on the train, but I don't expect cheap tickets for
>> suitable times to be available for much longer.
>>   
>>     
>
> I'll probably be going down Friday and staying in a cheap hotel or B&B, 
> although I need to check the dates and make sure someone can look after 
> my dogs. I'll let you know when I'm definite if that sounds good to you.
>   

I'm definitely going, driving down Friday the 28th and coming back late 
on Saturday the 29th. If anyone wants a lift let me know, I'll be 
booking up a hotel or B&B some time next week.


Lyle

From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Fri Nov  7 10:28:44 2008
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Fri,  7 Nov 2008 10:28:44 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] [ANNOUNCE] Ye Olde Perl[e] Mo[u]ngeurs Of
 Londinium Worshoppe Schedule of Events
References: <49106AB1.70809@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081104160851.519.9400@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<491076D8.8020503@cosmicperl.com> <4912F3DA.7030400@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20081107102843.519.9413@edison.ioppublishing.com>

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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Mon Nov 10 01:03:52 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:03:52 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] First Wiki up :)
Message-ID: <49178878.2040208@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  The first wiki is up. The others should follow shortly when I get chance:-
http://www.perlcert.com


Lyle

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Mon Nov 10 14:33:36 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:33:36 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] [Fwd: [pm_groups] Perl Monger/JAPH T-Shirts]
Message-ID: <49184640.1070706@cosmicperl.com>

I'm cleaning my house, and I found a selection of large-sized Perl

Monger t-shirts from a few years ago.  They're yours for the price of
shipping.

Here's what I've got:

Navy Blue Shirt, "Perl Mongers on the front, large JAPH on the
back in yellow".
   size XXL x 3
   size XL  x 2

Black Shirt, "Perl Mongers camel logo on front, nothing on the back"
   size XXXL x 1
   size XXL  x 1
   size XL   x 1

Price: $5/shirt within the USA.  international shipping on a case by
case basis.

While supplies last.  Payment via paypal.  (Or cash.)  

Let me know if you're interested. 

-R
--
Request pm.org Technical Support via support at pm.org

pm_groups mailing list
pm_groups at pm.org
http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/pm_groups




From psykx.out at googlemail.com  Mon Nov 10 18:57:00 2008
From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (max psykx)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:57:00 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] whats perl inspiring you to do at the moment?
Message-ID: <d2cea6400811101057j16baa29fxc50863622b258cc9@mail.gmail.com>

Hey all,
I asked this question question at the last monks meeting and I got a
few good answers until alcohol fueled a premature subject change. So
I'll ask again where there is.. er 'less distraction'.

whats perl inspiring you to do at the moment?

feel free to answer again if I asked you at the monks meeting for the
benefit of those who weren't there (or weren't listening ;) )


Max

From something at amias.org.uk  Tue Nov 11 11:47:08 2008
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:47:08 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] whats perl inspiring you to do at the moment?
In-Reply-To: <d2cea6400811101057j16baa29fxc50863622b258cc9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d2cea6400811101057j16baa29fxc50863622b258cc9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1226404028.7705.16.camel@localhost>

On Mon, 2008-11-10 at 18:57 +0000, max psykx wrote:

> whats perl inspiring you to do at the moment?

searching mostly , i am building an email search tool
for integration in to an existing web application.

Its supposed to compete with gmail , gulp .

as usual the project has been fun and challenging and
then all of a sudden i hit the date manipulation clusterf**k.

Date and Time calculations have to be the single biggest
failure of mankind to date, we call ourselves civilised yet we
waste millions of man hours fiddling with our archaic
date and time systems. I'd hate to think how much carbon is
emitted needlessly to compute the vagaries of our calendar.

Metric time FTW !!!!

Lets impliment metric time in perl and let it spread from there.

Toodle-pip
Amias


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Tue Nov 11 14:50:09 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:50:09 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] whats perl inspiring you to do at the moment?
In-Reply-To: <d2cea6400811101057j16baa29fxc50863622b258cc9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d2cea6400811101057j16baa29fxc50863622b258cc9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49199BA1.8070206@cosmicperl.com>

max psykx wrote:
> whats perl inspiring you to do at the moment?
>   

Read my previous posts :)


Lyle

From revford at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue Nov 11 15:02:16 2008
From: revford at blueyonder.co.uk (Gav Ford)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:02:16 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] whats perl inspiring you to do at the moment?
In-Reply-To: <1226404028.7705.16.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <20081111150216.GA10948@holly.local>

On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 11:47:08AM +0000, Amias Channer wrote:
> Metric time FTW !!!!
>
> Lets impliment metric time in perl and let it spread from there.


I'm with you on the move to a nice, clean decimal time system.

Kiloseconds are the way forward, close enough to a quarter hour to help people
transition.  86.4ks to the day is no stranger than 24 hours.

Ten day weeks, three weeks to the month.

Ignore the extra 5 and a bit days and everyone gets the chance of both snow and
sunshine on their Birthday in their lifetime.  :)

Or we can correct the speed/spin of the Earth to fit the calendar better.

-- 
Gav Ford
revford at blueyonder.co.uk 
http://revford.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk 
I think we need to:  Realign the creation matrix channel



From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Tue Nov 11 17:55:35 2008
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 17:55:35 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] whats perl inspiring you to do at the moment?
References: <d2cea6400811101057j16baa29fxc50863622b258cc9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20081111175535.5976.9421@edison.ioppublishing.com>

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From psykx.out at googlemail.com  Tue Nov 11 17:57:58 2008
From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (max psykx)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 17:57:58 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] whats perl inspiring you to do at the moment?
In-Reply-To: <20081111150216.GA10948@holly.local>
References: <1226404028.7705.16.camel@localhost>
	<20081111150216.GA10948@holly.local>
Message-ID: <d2cea6400811110957p4fd56df7t8b94c224124304c9@mail.gmail.com>

2008/11/11 Gav Ford <revford at blueyonder.co.uk>:
> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 11:47:08AM +0000, Amias Channer wrote:
>> Metric time FTW !!!!
>>
>> Lets impliment metric time in perl and let it spread from there.
>
>
> I'm with you on the move to a nice, clean decimal time system.
>

[snip]
me too, although I think that we should work backwards from the length
of a year (in milliseconds or whatever) and divide it by a multiple of
10 to create a new 'minute' style measure of time and use that as the
this you divide by another multiple of 10 for the smaller measurements

Max

From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Thu Nov 13 09:05:10 2008
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:05:10 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] RFC: Next meeting
Message-ID: <PGM.20081113090510.5976.9422@edison.ioppublishing.com>

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From alex at alexfrancis.org.uk  Thu Nov 13 10:16:12 2008
From: alex at alexfrancis.org.uk (Alex Francis)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:16:12 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] RFC: Next meeting
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20081113090510.5976.9422@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <PGM.20081113090510.5976.9422@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550811130216m3cc3d918o668a38b439cb37b5@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 9:05 AM, Peter Haworth
<pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com> wrote:
> Is it too late to plan a meeting for next Tuesday, or should we just
> leave it for another month like last time? Given the level of
> attendance last month, it would seem a shame to drop back to the
> desperation schedule, so I'm inclined towards a compromise of the
> 25th, if 5 days' notice isn't enough for the 18th.
>
> --
>        Peter Haworth   pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com

I can't make the 18th - said I'd go see Stefan Goodchild make strange
noises at Dorkbot ( http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotbristol/ )

Could make the 25th.

Alex

From nigel at turbo10.com  Thu Nov 13 10:18:48 2008
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:18:48 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] RFC: Next meeting
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20081113090510.5976.9422@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <PGM.20081113090510.5976.9422@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <50fec4060811130218x1c4a354g7ca8aadd55729546@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Is it too late to plan a meeting for next Tuesday, or should we just
> leave it for another month like last time? Given the level of
> attendance last month, it would seem a shame to drop back to the
> desperation schedule, so I'm inclined towards a compromise of the
> 25th, if 5 days' notice isn't enough for the 18th.
>

I can make either the 18th or 25th.

Nige
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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Thu Nov 13 15:31:25 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:31:25 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] RFC: Next meeting
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20081113090510.5976.9422@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <PGM.20081113090510.5976.9422@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <491C484D.8040403@cosmicperl.com>

Peter Haworth wrote:
> Is it too late to plan a meeting for next Tuesday, or should we just
> leave it for another month like last time? Given the level of
> attendance last month, it would seem a shame to drop back to the
> desperation schedule, so I'm inclined towards a compromise of the
> 25th, if 5 days' notice isn't enough for the 18th.
>   

I get the feeling attendance will bounce up and down like a yo-yo. Maybe 
it's worth checking (like this) with the regulars each month? I could do 
the 25th as well, so that's 4 of us which sounds like a meet :)

I think a new venue is in order, any suggestions?


Lyle


From paulm at paulm.com  Thu Nov 13 15:44:26 2008
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:44:26 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] RFC: Next meeting
In-Reply-To: <491C484D.8040403@cosmicperl.com>
References: <PGM.20081113090510.5976.9422@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<491C484D.8040403@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0811130744p52552b6bl466aa715165533a9@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 3:31 PM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
> Peter Haworth wrote:
>> Is it too late to plan a meeting for next Tuesday, or should we just
>> leave it for another month like last time? Given the level of
>> attendance last month, it would seem a shame to drop back to the
>> desperation schedule, so I'm inclined towards a compromise of the
>> 25th, if 5 days' notice isn't enough for the 18th.
>>
>
> I get the feeling attendance will bounce up and down like a yo-yo. Maybe
> it's worth checking (like this) with the regulars each month? I could do
> the 25th as well, so that's 4 of us which sounds like a meet :)
>
> I think a new venue is in order, any suggestions?

Just for what it's worth based on my experience of these things - pick
a time and a place and stick to it until you have critical mass to
move around. Whatever you decide, I'd strongly suggest having some
kind of predictable algorithm for the where & when, and publish that
up on your website (actual dates, times, and places).

E.g. algorithm: "third wednesday every month, alternating between
Venue X in Bristol and Venue Y in Bath". Then map those dates out for
six months' hence published on the website, plus an .ics link.

P

>
>
> Lyle
>
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>

From alex at alexfrancis.org.uk  Thu Nov 13 18:10:59 2008
From: alex at alexfrancis.org.uk (Alex Francis)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:10:59 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] RFC: Next meeting
In-Reply-To: <491C484D.8040403@cosmicperl.com>
References: <PGM.20081113090510.5976.9422@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<491C484D.8040403@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550811131010s25eba80coa31316b9cb6ac087@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 3:31 PM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
> I think a new venue is in order, any suggestions?
> Lyle
>

Assuming we're talking Bristol:

If you wanted (i) a pub that was (ii) near Temple Meads station, (iii)
served some good beer (as far as I know) and (iv) would keep Peter
happy location-wise, how about the Cornubia?

http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/s/18/1874/Cornubia/Bristol
http://www.britishpubguide.com/cgi-bin/pub.cgi?results:Bristol:2109
http://www.viewbristol.co.uk/pubsandbars/the-cornubia-userreview-39464.html

There's also the King's Head on Victoria Street, which is very nice but tiny.
http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/s/40/4083/Kings_Head/Bristol

I don't expect either of those would have wifi! But then how many pubs do?

Alex

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Thu Nov 13 22:30:35 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:30:35 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] whats perl inspiring you to do at the moment?
In-Reply-To: <49199BA1.8070206@cosmicperl.com>
References: <d2cea6400811101057j16baa29fxc50863622b258cc9@mail.gmail.com>
	<49199BA1.8070206@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <491CAA8B.2090503@cosmicperl.com>

Lyle wrote:
> max psykx wrote:
>   
>> whats perl inspiring you to do at the moment?
>>     
>
> Read my previous posts :)
>   

Just remembered I mentioned B::Deparse at some point. It can be 
interesting to get a better idea of how Perl really sees things once 
it's parsed your code.

Sample script:-

use B::Deparse;


sub samplesub {
    for ( my $i = 1; $i < 101; $i++ ) {
        print "$i, ";
        print 'Half way, ' if ( $i == 50 );
    }#for
    print "Bang!\n\n";
   
}#sub


for ( my $level = 1; $level <= 9; $level++ ) {
    my $deparse = B::Deparse->new("-x$level");
    my $body = $deparse->coderef2text(\&samplesub);

    print "Level $level\n";
    print $body;
    print "\n" x 2;
}#for



Sample output (minus levels that gave the same output):-

Level 1
{
    for (my $i = 1; $i < 101; ++$i) {
        print "$i, ";
        print 'Half way, ' if $i == 50;
    }
    print "Bang!\n\n";
}

Level 3
{
    while ($i < 101) {
        print "$i, ";
        print 'Half way, ' if $i == 50;
    }
    continue {
        ++$i
    }
    print "Bang!\n\n";
}

Level 7
{
    while ($i < 101) {
        print "$i, ";
        $i == 50 and print 'Half way, ';
    }
    continue {
        ++$i
    }
    print "Bang!\n\n";
}




From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Fri Nov 14 11:38:29 2008
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:38:29 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] RFC: Next meeting
References: <PGM.20081113090510.5976.9422@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<491C484D.8040403@cosmicperl.com>
	<c37577dd0811130744p52552b6bl466aa715165533a9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20081114113829.5976.9431@edison.ioppublishing.com>

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From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Fri Nov 14 11:51:20 2008
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:51:20 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] RFC: Next meeting
References: <PGM.20081113090510.5976.9422@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<491C484D.8040403@cosmicperl.com>
	<16afc9550811131010s25eba80coa31316b9cb6ac087@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20081114115120.5976.9432@edison.ioppublishing.com>

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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Nov 14 16:28:41 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 16:28:41 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] RFC: Next meeting
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20081114113829.5976.9431@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <PGM.20081113090510.5976.9422@edison.ioppublishing.com>	<491C484D.8040403@cosmicperl.com>	<c37577dd0811130744p52552b6bl466aa715165533a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<PGM.20081114113829.5976.9431@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <491DA739.5060405@cosmicperl.com>

Peter Haworth wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:44:26 +0000, Paul Makepeace wrote:
>   
>>> Peter Haworth wrote:
>>>       
>>>> Is it too late to plan a meeting for next Tuesday, or should we
>>>> just leave it for another month like last time? Given the level
>>>> of attendance last month, it would seem a shame to drop back to
>>>> the desperation schedule, so I'm inclined towards a compromise of
>>>> the 25th, if 5 days' notice isn't enough for the 18th.
>>>>         
>> Just for what it's worth based on my experience of these things -
>> pick a time and a place and stick to it until you have critical mass
>> to move around. Whatever you decide, I'd strongly suggest having
>> some kind of predictable algorithm for the where & when, and publish
>> that up on your website (actual dates, times, and places).
>>
>> E.g. algorithm: "third wednesday every month, alternating between
>>      Venue X in Bristol and Venue Y in Bath". Then map those dates
>>      out for six months' hence published on the website, plus an
>>      .ics link.
>>     
>
> I agree in principle, but given the lack of organization so far this
> month, it may be worth breaking the rule just this once, while we
> still don't have the schedule officially mapped out anywhere.
>   

It's a good idea, and maybe something we should look at implementing 
once the site is on a Wiki where we can all make updates and delegate 
sections to each other. Sorry for the lack of organisation this month 
but I honestly thought everyone preferred the idea of a meet every other 
month...

> As to the official schedule, "third Tuesday every month, alternating
> between Bristol and Bath" is what we have been roughly working to so
> far, though we have tried to go to a different venue each time
> (Bristol meetings notwithstanding).
>   

BPM last meet announcement was sent on the same day as the meet, LPM has 
been known to leave some meet details until the last minute as well so 
we aren't doing anything out of the ordinary. I like the idea of 
different venues as it makes things a bit more fun.


Lyle

From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Fri Nov 14 17:53:00 2008
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:53:00 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] RFC: Next meeting
References: <PGM.20081113090510.5976.9422@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<491C484D.8040403@cosmicperl.com>
	<c37577dd0811130744p52552b6bl466aa715165533a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<PGM.20081114113829.5976.9431@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<491DA739.5060405@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20081114175300.5976.9439@edison.ioppublishing.com>

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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Nov 14 19:24:55 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 19:24:55 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] PerlPortal.com was [Fwd:
	[pm_groups]	CulturedPerl.org]
In-Reply-To: <c37577dd0810210935l201d326sb18bd2e13fc22a40@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48F91335.6000604@cosmicperl.com>
	<48F915C6.1060403@cosmicperl.com>	<48FDECDF.6080001@cosmicperl.com>	<c37577dd0810210833t5ef589cfofda82fd41259ab3@mail.gmail.com>	<48FDF933.3080003@cosmicperl.com>	<c37577dd0810210854p1ad35344n325bffa33d312b52@mail.gmail.com>	<48FDFEA9.8050304@cosmicperl.com>
	<c37577dd0810210935l201d326sb18bd2e13fc22a40@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <491DD087.4060506@cosmicperl.com>

Paul Makepeace wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 5:09 PM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com 
> <mailto:webmaster at cosmicperl.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     Does sound like a pain. Can't is use TinyMVC or something?
>
>
> Maybe; I haven't  looked into it. I'm sure something like that would help.

The newer ones use TinyMVC by default, which seems a lot easier for the 
most part.


Lyle


From paulm at paulm.com  Fri Nov 14 21:17:41 2008
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 21:17:41 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] RFC: Next meeting
In-Reply-To: <491DA739.5060405@cosmicperl.com>
References: <PGM.20081113090510.5976.9422@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<491C484D.8040403@cosmicperl.com>
	<c37577dd0811130744p52552b6bl466aa715165533a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<PGM.20081114113829.5976.9431@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<491DA739.5060405@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0811141317i244878c8udc2bd9abb8070461@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 4:28 PM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
> Peter Haworth wrote:
>> On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:44:26 +0000, Paul Makepeace wrote:
>>
>>>> Peter Haworth wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Is it too late to plan a meeting for next Tuesday, or should we
>>>>> just leave it for another month like last time? Given the level
>>>>> of attendance last month, it would seem a shame to drop back to
>>>>> the desperation schedule, so I'm inclined towards a compromise of
>>>>> the 25th, if 5 days' notice isn't enough for the 18th.
>>>>>
>>> Just for what it's worth based on my experience of these things -
>>> pick a time and a place and stick to it until you have critical mass
>>> to move around. Whatever you decide, I'd strongly suggest having
>>> some kind of predictable algorithm for the where & when, and publish
>>> that up on your website (actual dates, times, and places).
>>>
>>> E.g. algorithm: "third wednesday every month, alternating between
>>>      Venue X in Bristol and Venue Y in Bath". Then map those dates
>>>      out for six months' hence published on the website, plus an
>>>      .ics link.
>>>
>>
>> I agree in principle, but given the lack of organization so far this
>> month, it may be worth breaking the rule just this once, while we
>> still don't have the schedule officially mapped out anywhere.
>>
>
> It's a good idea, and maybe something we should look at implementing
> once the site is on a Wiki where we can all make updates and delegate
> sections to each other. Sorry for the lack of organisation this month
> but I honestly thought everyone preferred the idea of a meet every other
> month...
>
>> As to the official schedule, "third Tuesday every month, alternating
>> between Bristol and Bath" is what we have been roughly working to so
>> far, though we have tried to go to a different venue each time
>> (Bristol meetings notwithstanding).
>>
>
> BPM last meet announcement was sent on the same day as the meet, LPM has
> been known to leave some meet details until the last minute as well so
> we aren't doing anything out of the ordinary. I like the idea of
> different venues as it makes things a bit more fun.

THis is very unusual and is partly them leveraging over a decade of
meetings. They got there by doing precisely what we're talking about
which is embedding continuity and predictability which IME is really,
really important.

Some people make decisions to go/not go based on
venue/parking/particular beer on tap so you lose out on those people
by not giving a bit of advance notice.

P
>
>
> Lyle
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>

From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Mon Nov 17 11:16:19 2008
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:16:19 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Next meeting
Message-ID: <PGM.20081117111619.21146.9440@edison.ioppublishing.com>

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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Mon Nov 17 22:51:56 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 22:51:56 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Next meeting
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20081117111619.21146.9440@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <PGM.20081117111619.21146.9440@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <4921F58C.7070801@cosmicperl.com>

I've updated the site meetings page, added the archive link to the 
homepage that Alex requested, and put Nigel's pic on the people page.

IT WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE MORE PEOPLE AND PICS ON THE PEOPLE PAGE :)


Lyle

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Thu Nov 20 15:32:03 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:32:03 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] [ANNOUNCE] Ye Olde Perl[e] Mo[u]ngeurs Of
 Londinium Worshoppe Schedule of Events
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20081107102843.519.9413@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <49106AB1.70809@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081104160851.519.9400@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<491076D8.8020503@cosmicperl.com> <4912F3DA.7030400@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081107102843.519.9413@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <492582F3.5080309@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
 Thought I'd mention to anyone going that you are supposed to register 
as this wasn't included in the original announcement.

http://conferences.yapceurope.org/lpw2008/


Lyle

From alex at alexfrancis.org.uk  Thu Nov 20 15:44:54 2008
From: alex at alexfrancis.org.uk (Alex Francis)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:44:54 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] [ANNOUNCE] Ye Olde Perl[e] Mo[u]ngeurs Of
	Londinium Worshoppe Schedule of Events
In-Reply-To: <492582F3.5080309@cosmicperl.com>
References: <49106AB1.70809@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081104160851.519.9400@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<491076D8.8020503@cosmicperl.com> <4912F3DA.7030400@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20081107102843.519.9413@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<492582F3.5080309@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550811200744v1c7afb37o25e9d16130d782e6@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 3:32 PM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>  Thought I'd mention to anyone going that you are supposed to register
> as this wasn't included in the original announcement.
>
> http://conferences.yapceurope.org/lpw2008/
>
>
> Lyle
> _______________________________________________

I can't make it, but if anyone is and would like to present their
highlights at the next meetup, I'd be very grateful. In return I
promise to actually come up with a proper talk to do some time soon
:-)

Alex

From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Mon Nov 24 12:12:51 2008
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:12:51 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Next meeting
References: <PGM.20081117111619.21146.9440@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20081124121251.21939.9459@edison.ioppublishing.com>

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From alex at alexfrancis.org.uk  Mon Nov 24 12:28:17 2008
From: alex at alexfrancis.org.uk (Alex Francis)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:28:17 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Next meeting
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20081124121251.21939.9459@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <PGM.20081117111619.21146.9440@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<PGM.20081124121251.21939.9459@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550811240428u50452871r379e20d7436eb8d6@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Peter Haworth
<pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com> wrote:
> Just a reminder. The meeting is tomorrow:
>
>> http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/1366859/
>

Note from http://www.britishpubguide.com/cgi-bin/pub.cgi?results:Bristol:2109 :

Please note that the official postcode of the Cornubia is BS1 6EN.
However, we have used BS1 6AB as all online mapping systems place that
postcode where the pub actually is, rather than a quarter of a mile
away!

Here's a google mymap showing the actual location:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&ll=51.452366,-2.587184&spn=0.002153,0.006909&t=h&z=18&msid=107182050424540813314.00045c6e7a8d491343cf5

(Also posted as a comment on the upcoming event page)

Alex

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Mon Nov 24 22:08:53 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:08:53 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Anyone know about valuing software IP and Websites?
Message-ID: <492B25F5.8010906@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  Anyone know about valuing software IP and Websites for your end of 
year accounts? I need to show the company has some valuable assets that 
aren't tangible. Do I really need to write a load of CD's so that I can 
show some good stock?


Lyle

From nigel at turbo10.com  Mon Nov 24 23:35:35 2008
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 23:35:35 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Anyone know about valuing software IP and
	Websites?
In-Reply-To: <492B25F5.8010906@cosmicperl.com>
References: <492B25F5.8010906@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <50fec4060811241535w5e97c09eufefda95bbc93502c@mail.gmail.com>

HI Lyle,

  Anyone know about valuing software IP and Websites for your end of

> year accounts?


Your accountant will probably have a metric they can use. The value of your
IP in software is a tricky one - one measure is the cost of creating it
(hours spent etc) another is what someone would pay for it if you had to
sell it.

Also there are tax breaks for innovation and research - so if you can show
that some of your software is for research and development you can actually
receive a tax credit.

I need to show the company has some valuable assets that
> aren't tangible. Do I really need to write a load of CD's so that I can
> show some good stock?
>

The number of CD's won't increase the value --- it's the copyright in the
contents that is valuable.

Other intangible assets include your domain names, trade marks and goodwill.

Nige
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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Wed Nov 26 00:49:08 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 00:49:08 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Next meeting
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550811240428u50452871r379e20d7436eb8d6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PGM.20081117111619.21146.9440@edison.ioppublishing.com>	<PGM.20081124121251.21939.9459@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<16afc9550811240428u50452871r379e20d7436eb8d6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <492C9D04.5070800@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  Thanks to all those that made it to the meet. Would you believe it, 
the guy that recognised Perl early in the evening as he was leaving, 
came back in and we had a chat at the bar. Seems we'll be getting two 
more people join the list :) Maybe pubs like the Cornubia are a better 
target than the Watershed, picking up old Perl programmers...


See you at the next meet ;)


Lyle


From nigel at turbo10.com  Wed Nov 26 06:34:24 2008
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 06:34:24 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] module mentions
Message-ID: <50fec4060811252234t38329c39oa12c2f59ef4362a8@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

     Here are the two modules I mentioned last night.

     For simple "no code in the template" ... Template::Simple

* http://search.cpan.org/~uri/Template-Simple-0.02/lib/Template/Simple.pm

     For talking straight to the database  ... DBIx::Simple

*
http://search.cpan.org/~juerd/DBIx-Simple-1.32/lib/DBIx/Simple/Examples.pod

     Looking forward to picking up more Perl mongers at the next meeting.

Nige
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From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Wed Nov 26 09:22:57 2008
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 09:22:57 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] module mentions
References: <50fec4060811252234t38329c39oa12c2f59ef4362a8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20081126092257.21939.9461@edison.ioppublishing.com>

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From psykx.out at googlemail.com  Wed Nov 26 11:32:19 2008
From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (max psykx)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:32:19 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Next meeting
In-Reply-To: <492C9D04.5070800@cosmicperl.com>
References: <PGM.20081117111619.21146.9440@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<PGM.20081124121251.21939.9459@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<16afc9550811240428u50452871r379e20d7436eb8d6@mail.gmail.com>
	<492C9D04.5070800@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <d2cea6400811260332l6976b551qae3673b584d44131@mail.gmail.com>

2008/11/26 Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com>:
> Hi All,
>  Thanks to all those that made it to the meet. Would you believe it,
> the guy that recognised Perl early in the evening as he was leaving,
> came back in and we had a chat at the bar. Seems we'll be getting two
> more people join the list :) Maybe pubs like the Cornubia are a better
> target than the Watershed, picking up old Perl programmers...
>
>
> See you at the next meet ;)
>
>
> Lyle
Sorry I couldn't make it, I have just moved house, hopefully I'll see
you at the next meet.

Max

From something at amias.org.uk  Wed Nov 26 12:45:20 2008
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 12:45:20 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] t shirts
Message-ID: <1227703520.7340.2.camel@localhost>

Hello All ,

Heres them ethical tshirts from yonder stokes croft
http://www.greenteeprints.co.uk/org.htm

Toodle-pip
Amias


From nigel at turbo10.com  Wed Nov 26 13:28:21 2008
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 13:28:21 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Next meeting
In-Reply-To: <d2cea6400811260332l6976b551qae3673b584d44131@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PGM.20081117111619.21146.9440@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<PGM.20081124121251.21939.9459@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<16afc9550811240428u50452871r379e20d7436eb8d6@mail.gmail.com>
	<492C9D04.5070800@cosmicperl.com>
	<d2cea6400811260332l6976b551qae3673b584d44131@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50fec4060811260528v17d58a7fh44d8f4b674b1fede@mail.gmail.com>

> > Lyle
> Sorry I couldn't make it, I have just moved house, hopefully I'll see
> you at the next meet.
>

Talking about that. Let's go for the 16th - the third Tuesday of the month
in December.

I hope we can get a few more Bathonian Perl Mongers. I think last night's
pub was a good choice and "The Raven" pub in Bath has a similar atmosphere
so let's try there for our next meeting.

I'll send out announcements and directions when we get a bit closer to the
time.

Nige
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From psykx.out at googlemail.com  Wed Nov 26 13:41:34 2008
From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (max psykx)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 13:41:34 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Next meeting
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060811260528v17d58a7fh44d8f4b674b1fede@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PGM.20081117111619.21146.9440@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<PGM.20081124121251.21939.9459@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<16afc9550811240428u50452871r379e20d7436eb8d6@mail.gmail.com>
	<492C9D04.5070800@cosmicperl.com>
	<d2cea6400811260332l6976b551qae3673b584d44131@mail.gmail.com>
	<50fec4060811260528v17d58a7fh44d8f4b674b1fede@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d2cea6400811260541l4e35d08oeea4f9b8f5f80397@mail.gmail.com>

2008/11/26 Nigel Hamilton <nigel at turbo10.com>:
>
>> > Lyle
>> Sorry I couldn't make it, I have just moved house, hopefully I'll see
>> you at the next meet.
>
>
> Talking about that. Let's go for the 16th - the third Tuesday of the month
> in December.
>
> I hope we can get a few more Bathonian Perl Mongers. I think last night's
> pub was a good choice and "The Raven" pub in Bath has a similar atmosphere
> so let's try there for our next meeting.
>
> I'll send out announcements and directions when we get a bit closer to the
> time.
>
> Nige
>

If I had a diary I'd put it in it, might be worth posting the meeting
times on the bblug when they are confirmed

Max

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Nov 28 00:30:12 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 00:30:12 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] To MD5 or not to MD5??
Message-ID: <492F3B94.8010802@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  I need to add a little security to one of my tracking scripts. The 
common way to do this is to encrypt a known tracking id combined with a 
secret password, such as md5( id . password ).

I'm wondering if MD5 is the best way to go? I know max was talking about 
encryption at the last meet...

Requirements are that other languages need to be able to easily do this 
encryption as well. Such as ASP VBscript, JScript, C#, ColdFusion, PHP, 
Python, Ruby...

I'm also going to have to provide code example snippets for each :(

Would appreciate any feedback...


Lyle


From andy at mentalist.co.uk  Fri Nov 28 09:42:07 2008
From: andy at mentalist.co.uk (Andy Gale)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 09:42:07 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] To MD5 or not to MD5??
In-Reply-To: <492F3B94.8010802@cosmicperl.com>
References: <492F3B94.8010802@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <a3639e6d0811280142o6bc98b0cj16928ae8632ef09f@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 12:30 AM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:

> I'm wondering if MD5 is the best way to go? I know max was talking about
> encryption at the last meet...

Now that MD5 is considered partially insecure[1], I'd recommend using
SHA1. Also, I'd suggest you use a salt [2] in the key you are trying
to generate. The salt being basically a random string.

md5(id . password) is relatively easy to break with bruteforce (by
just trying all numbers and words, etc) while sha1(id . random_string
. password) is an order of magnitude more secure.

Cheers

-- 
Andy Gale

1. http://web.archive.org/web/20070604205756/http://www.infosec.sdu.edu.cn/paper/md5-attack.pdf
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(cryptography)

From psykx.out at googlemail.com  Fri Nov 28 11:36:24 2008
From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (max psykx)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 11:36:24 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] To MD5 or not to MD5??
In-Reply-To: <a3639e6d0811280142o6bc98b0cj16928ae8632ef09f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <492F3B94.8010802@cosmicperl.com>
	<a3639e6d0811280142o6bc98b0cj16928ae8632ef09f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d2cea6400811280336v74b8a002te7a8217dba27b6b2@mail.gmail.com>

2008/11/28 Andy Gale <andy at mentalist.co.uk>:
> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 12:30 AM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm wondering if MD5 is the best way to go? I know max was talking about
>> encryption at the last meet...
>
I still only messing with RSA so... How secure does your application
need to be? can you set up secure keys on both machines? I'll guess
not as you need it to work with javascript (unless Jscript is
different).
> Now that MD5 is considered partially insecure[1], I'd recommend using
> SHA1. Also, I'd suggest you use a salt [2] in the key you are trying
> to generate. The salt being basically a random string.
>
SHA1 also has mathematical weaknesses, although MD5 is weaker the use
of a salt, as described below, removes the possibility of a brute
force attack (theoretically)
> md5(id . password) is relatively easy to break with bruteforce (by
> just trying all numbers and words, etc) while sha1(id . random_string
> . password) is an order of magnitude more secure.
>
> Cheers
>
So basically it's a balance between being supported (I don't know
about anything windows atm) and being secure (Using RSA keys to
encrypt using another symmetric algorithm  because RSA is about 1000
times slower than a symmetric algo. )

Max

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Nov 28 11:51:19 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 11:51:19 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] To MD5 or not to MD5??
In-Reply-To: <d2cea6400811280336v74b8a002te7a8217dba27b6b2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <492F3B94.8010802@cosmicperl.com>	<a3639e6d0811280142o6bc98b0cj16928ae8632ef09f@mail.gmail.com>
	<d2cea6400811280336v74b8a002te7a8217dba27b6b2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <492FDB37.7050406@cosmicperl.com>

max psykx wrote:
> 2008/11/28 Andy Gale <andy at mentalist.co.uk>:
>   
>> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 12:30 AM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
>>     
>>> I'm wondering if MD5 is the best way to go? I know max was talking about
>>> encryption at the last meet...
>>>       
> I still only messing with RSA so... How secure does your application
> need to be? can you set up secure keys on both machines? I'll guess
> not as you need it to work with javascript (unless Jscript is
> different).
>   

When making old asp pages, you can choose between VBScript and JScript. 
JScript is JavaScript, but it's server side, not the browser based stuff 
most of us are used to.

>> Now that MD5 is considered partially insecure[1], I'd recommend using
>> SHA1. Also, I'd suggest you use a salt [2] in the key you are trying
>> to generate. The salt being basically a random string.
>>
>>     
> SHA1 also has mathematical weaknesses, although MD5 is weaker the use
> of a salt, as described below, removes the possibility of a brute
> force attack (theoretically)
>   
>> md5(id . password) is relatively easy to break with bruteforce (by
>> just trying all numbers and words, etc) while sha1(id . random_string
>> . password) is an order of magnitude more secure.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>     
> So basically it's a balance between being supported (I don't know
> about anything windows atm) and being secure (Using RSA keys to
> encrypt using another symmetric algorithm  because RSA is about 1000
> times slower than a symmetric algo. )
>   

It needs to be pretty quick... and there needs to be a pure perl option 
for the crappy shared hosting people.

Maybe I should offer MD5, SHA1, BlowFish, etc, and let the user decide 
which to use. That way they can use the best method that their language 
supports.


Lyle


From david at cantrell.org.uk  Fri Nov 28 12:56:04 2008
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 12:56:04 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] To MD5 or not to MD5??
In-Reply-To: <492F3B94.8010802@cosmicperl.com>
References: <492F3B94.8010802@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <20081128125604.GE10118@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 12:30:12AM +0000, Lyle wrote:

>   I need to add a little security to one of my tracking scripts. The 
> common way to do this is to encrypt a known tracking id combined with a 
> secret password, such as md5( id . password ).
> 
> I'm wondering if MD5 is the best way to go? I know max was talking about 
> encryption at the last meet...

Presumably the aim of this is so that some random person can't figure
out what the next valid ID is?  Or so that you can tell if they've
changed the ID because the hash won't match?

In that case, MD5 is fine.  None of its current known weaknesses apply,
and for such tiny amounts of data attacks would be Hard, provided you
choose a strong password so they can't use a rainbow table.  About 128
bits of password (incidentally, in the literature what you've valled a
password is normally called a salt - you are liable to confuse yourself
and your customers if you don't call it that, as the literature
generally uses hashes of *passwords* + salt as its examples; but I'll
continue to call it a password in this email) is considered to be strong
enough to protect root's password on modern Unixes.

If your password consists of a-z, A-Z, 0-9 and
\|,./<>?;'#:@~[]{}-_=+)(*&^%$"! (93 different characters) then you have
log(93)/log(2) == 6.5 bits per character, so should use a string of 19
or 20 random characters.  If you use a passphrase, then remember that
English only gives you about 1 bit per character.

> Requirements are that other languages need to be able to easily do this 
> encryption as well. Such as ASP VBscript, JScript, C#, ColdFusion, PHP, 
> Python, Ruby...

MD5 is a very common algorithm, and I'd be shocked if it wasn't
available for all of those.

-- 
David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world

Perl: the only language that makes Welsh look acceptable

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Nov 28 13:57:47 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 13:57:47 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] To MD5 or not to MD5??
In-Reply-To: <20081128125604.GE10118@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
References: <492F3B94.8010802@cosmicperl.com>
	<20081128125604.GE10118@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
Message-ID: <492FF8DB.4080906@cosmicperl.com>

David Cantrell wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 12:30:12AM +0000, Lyle wrote:
>
>   
>>   I need to add a little security to one of my tracking scripts. The 
>> common way to do this is to encrypt a known tracking id combined with a 
>> secret password, such as md5( id . password ).
>>
>> I'm wondering if MD5 is the best way to go? I know max was talking about 
>> encryption at the last meet...
>>     
>
> Presumably the aim of this is so that some random person can't figure
> out what the next valid ID is?  Or so that you can tell if they've
> changed the ID because the hash won't match?
>   

A tracking script is called through http(s) being passed an ID and some 
other data along the query string. I need to verify that this is 
genuine, as simple password is no good as they will be able to pick it 
up of the query string, so the idea is to pass the id and MD5( id + 
password ). Then on the other side you can re-generate MD5( id + 
password ) and check it matches.

> In that case, MD5 is fine.  None of its current known weaknesses apply,
> and for such tiny amounts of data attacks would be Hard, provided you
> choose a strong password so they can't use a rainbow table.  About 128
> bits of password (incidentally, in the literature what you've valled a
> password is normally called a salt - you are liable to confuse yourself
> and your customers if you don't call it that, as the literature
> generally uses hashes of *passwords* + salt as its examples; but I'll
> continue to call it a password in this email) is considered to be strong
> enough to protect root's password on modern Unixes.
>   

You're right I mean salt and not password. MD5( id + salt )

> If your password consists of a-z, A-Z, 0-9 and
> \|,./<>?;'#:@~[]{}-_=+)(*&^%$"! (93 different characters) then you have
> log(93)/log(2) == 6.5 bits per character, so should use a string of 19
> or 20 random characters.  If you use a passphrase, then remember that
> English only gives you about 1 bit per character.
>   

I thought a bit was either 1 or 0 and a byte was a 8 bits which is used 
to represent characters?

>> Requirements are that other languages need to be able to easily do this 
>> encryption as well. Such as ASP VBscript, JScript, C#, ColdFusion, PHP, 
>> Python, Ruby...
>>     
>
> MD5 is a very common algorithm, and I'd be shocked if it wasn't
> available for all of those.
>   

I've done some searching and MD5 is indeed available on all these. SHA1 
seems to be on most, but a little trickier on some.

Although I did come across some code claiming to be an MD5 cracker... 
Haven't tested it through:-
http://grahana.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/perl-md5-cracker/


Lyle

From david at cantrell.org.uk  Fri Nov 28 14:51:15 2008
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 14:51:15 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] To MD5 or not to MD5??
In-Reply-To: <492FF8DB.4080906@cosmicperl.com>
References: <492F3B94.8010802@cosmicperl.com>
	<20081128125604.GE10118@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<492FF8DB.4080906@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <20081128145114.GA25001@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 01:57:47PM +0000, Lyle wrote:
> David Cantrell wrote:
> > If your password consists of a-z, A-Z, 0-9 and
> > \|,./<>?;'#:@~[]{}-_=+)(*&^%$"! (93 different characters) then you have
> > log(93)/log(2) == 6.5 bits per character, so should use a string of 19
> > or 20 random characters.  If you use a passphrase, then remember that
> > English only gives you about 1 bit per character.
> I thought a bit was either 1 or 0 and a byte was a 8 bits which is used 
> to represent characters?

Let's take an example.

If you have text (a passphrase) that you know starts with the text "jer"
then that gives you some information about the next letter.  So you
don't have 8 bits of "strength" in that fourth letter.  The only
possible fourth letters are (according to /usr/share/dict/words on this
'ere machine) a e i k m o r s and u.  8 choices, which is equivalent to
just three bits.  However, 1 and u only occur 2 times each out of 50,
whereas k occurs 12 times out of 50, so it's far more likely to be k.
And so on.

Claude Shannon showed that the "entropy" of English is really low, so
when you take into account legal words, plus the context in which they
appear, you only have about 1 bit of entropy per character:
  http://math.ucsd.edu/~crypto/java/ENTROPY/

Now, using just the 93 characters I listed, which I chose because
they're the ones that are easy to type, we notice a couple of things
about them:

The most significant bit is always zero, so we only have 7 bits of
randomness (at most), not 8.

Of the 128 possible characters with a 0 MSB, then (if we re-arrange
the ASCII table so that our 93 characters are the first 93 and the
remaining 35 come after them) then a random character from the list will
have the least significant six bits set at random (2^6 == 64, which is
less than 93) but the seventh bit isn't entirely used.  We only use 29
of the 64 possible characters that it gives us.  So if we know that that
bit is set, we now have some information about what the other six bits
have to be.  At its heart, this boils down to: because we're only using
93 of the 256 possibilities for an 8 bit value, each character has a
certain amount of redundant, predictable information in it, which makes
the passphrase less secure.  We combat this by making the passphrase
longer, so it's still secure enough.

> Although I did come across some code claiming to be an MD5 cracker... 
> Haven't tested it through:-
> http://grahana.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/perl-md5-cracker/

Trust me, that code is *not* a threat!  It uses brute force with 14
nested loops.  It will take eleventy zillion years to find a hash
collision.

-- 
David Cantrell | Hero of the Information Age

Are you feeling bored? depressed? slowed down?  Evil Scientists may
be manipulating the speed of light in your vicinity.  Buy our patented
instructional video to find out how, and maybe YOU can stop THEM

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Sun Nov 30 02:34:46 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 02:34:46 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
Message-ID: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  I have to admit that I leant a lot more from LPW than I expected... 
and I expected quite a bit.

Some of my notes:-

David Cantrell did an interesting thing on closures (which I'm sure I'll 
find very useful once I fully understand it :)

String::Koremutake - Creates random memorable strings (I thought this 
could be useful for memorable passwords for users, better than them 
choosing their own)
Term::Progressbar

Arbyte - Not yet released, a framework for job queuing and execution 
(seems like a big part of my current project that I haven't done yet, 
thank you Alistair Macleod)

Ed Freyfogle did an excellent piece on debugging:-
  Make helper scripts (to do the things you find yourself doing repeatedly)
  Logging - Log4Perl
  Dryrun option - shows you what would have been run rather than running it
  Schedule time for code review/learning
  Perl::Metrics::Simple
  User bug reporting - capture all that you can, such as all of ENV 
(browser, cookies...), time, etc.

Nestoria.co.uk said they were looking for coders part/full time, so did 
Paul Makepeace (who is on this list) - Amias didn't you have some spare 
work time?

Tom Hukins took an entertaining an energetic look deeper into 
Log::Dispatch and Log4Perl (I need to use this alongside the debug mode 
I've put into my current project, fills in the gaps I've had 
debugging)... Plus he reminded me of Timmy Mallett, which made it even 
funnier (it's ok, I told him and he thought that was cool)

Tim Bunce did a very, very well presented bit on Devel::NYTProf that 
looked brilliant. I'm looking forward to using it. (Realised I was 
meeting a Perl celeb, when Peter told me that he was the author of DBI. 
Luckily had chance to talk to him in the pub later and get some useful 
advice)

JJ did an interesting bit on a retail site he's worked on using a lot of 
CPAN including Catalyst, Handle a framework for shopping carts and 
PDF::Reuse (the only catalyst talk I went to, still prefer CGI::APP at 
the moment, will certainly start using PDF::Reuse as many of my customer 
don't seem to like a bare bones plain text invoices... hey, it's got my 
VAT number ain't it?)

A lightening talk mentioned TAP::Formatter::HTML which seemed to do a 
bit more than just formatting and made the data very easy to look through.

The Trout did a bit on encouraging people to post questions and idea's 
on Perl lists saying that they'd get support and useful feedback... 
Which Hugely contradicts the kind of responses he himself gives on 
LPM???? Maybe it's don't do as I Do, do as Lyle suggests...

I don't take a lot of notes. Everything (I think) was recorded so you'll 
be able to watch the bits that interest you.


Lyle


Oh and it's seems that the inner London Cabal must to have a rule where 
it's fine to talk to Lyle, as long as no other Cabal members see you do 
it, lol ;)

Makes me feel a big like Russell Brand, some people think that the BBC 
thing was a massive over reaction, others think it was unacceptable. 
Guess it just comes down to your sense of humour :) If only I had a Perl 
book out, sales might have rocketed (Brands book sales did). Maybe I 
should release a one off t-shirt "Perl is my bitch, but she doesn't like 
the way my beard feels against her thighs" - yes I have been drinking, LOL!


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Sun Nov 30 04:11:37 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 04:11:37 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Next meeting
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060811260528v17d58a7fh44d8f4b674b1fede@mail.gmail.com>
References: <PGM.20081117111619.21146.9440@edison.ioppublishing.com>	<PGM.20081124121251.21939.9459@edison.ioppublishing.com>	<16afc9550811240428u50452871r379e20d7436eb8d6@mail.gmail.com>	<492C9D04.5070800@cosmicperl.com>	<d2cea6400811260332l6976b551qae3673b584d44131@mail.gmail.com>
	<50fec4060811260528v17d58a7fh44d8f4b674b1fede@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49321279.3040505@cosmicperl.com>

Nigel Hamilton wrote:
> > Lyle
>
>     Sorry I couldn't make it, I have just moved house, hopefully I'll see
>     you at the next meet.
>
>  
> Talking about that. Let's go for the 16th - the third Tuesday of the 
> month in December.

As it's Christmas maybe we could make it a meal at somewhere (we could 
all bring our partners... after all it's Christmas :)
Keep the meet fairly shortish (the last bath one gave me a big hangover)
We have a meal...
Talk a bit...
Laugh at me struggling to eat anything hard... (got damn lingual brace)
The girls go off to a table to chat/moan/laugh about the strains of 
having a bf/husband who tries to explain programming concepts to them 
that they can only pretend to understand...
While the men retreat to a table where we can talk about the before 
mentioned Perl stuff where people actually know what you are on about...
Then we leave at a reasonable time to keep the before mentioned partners 
happy...

I think it could be a really good blend to keep the other half's happy, 
let them know what these Perl meets are on about, and ummm have some fun 
all together :)

After all it's not a lot to ask of them once a year... And it could be 
the (going out with a/married to a) programmer moaning that other girls 
just don't understand...

Just a thought...

Partner not required...


Lyle

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Sun Nov 30 05:32:55 2008
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 05:32:55 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] LPW was very enlightening
In-Reply-To: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4931FBC6.7080803@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <49322587.5030904@cosmicperl.com>

Lyle wrote:
> Hi All,
>   I have to admit that I leant a lot more from LPW than I expected... 
> and I expected quite a bit

1 free drink at the next meet to the first person who points out the 
blatant spelling mistake on the second line of my post. Plus 1 free 
drink to those than find others. Damn typos that are real words...


Lyle

From psykx.out at googlemail.com  Sun Nov 30 18:10:36 2008
From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (Max)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 18:10:36 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Next meeting
In-Reply-To: <49321279.3040505@cosmicperl.com>
References: <PGM.20081117111619.21146.9440@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<PGM.20081124121251.21939.9459@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<16afc9550811240428u50452871r379e20d7436eb8d6@mail.gmail.com>
	<492C9D04.5070800@cosmicperl.com>
	<d2cea6400811260332l6976b551qae3673b584d44131@mail.gmail.com>
	<50fec4060811260528v17d58a7fh44d8f4b674b1fede@mail.gmail.com>
	<49321279.3040505@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <A797F2D4-3ED3-4C0E-8089-887DFC9E2AB9@gmail.com>

I like the idea of having a meal at the next perl meeting, and maybe  
drinking a little less ;) I don't have a partner at the moment so I  
can't comment on that.

Max

Sent from my iPhone

On 30 Nov 2008, at 04:11, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:

> Nigel Hamilton wrote:
>>> Lyle
>>
>>    Sorry I couldn't make it, I have just moved house, hopefully  
>> I'll see
>>    you at the next meet.
>>
>>
>> Talking about that. Let's go for the 16th - the third Tuesday of the
>> month in December.
>
> As it's Christmas maybe we could make it a meal at somewhere (we could
> all bring our partners... after all it's Christmas :)
> Keep the meet fairly shortish (the last bath one gave me a big  
> hangover)
> We have a meal...
> Talk a bit...
> Laugh at me struggling to eat anything hard... (got damn lingual  
> brace)
> The girls go off to a table to chat/moan/laugh about the strains of
> having a bf/husband who tries to explain programming concepts to them
> that they can only pretend to understand...
> While the men retreat to a table where we can talk about the before
> mentioned Perl stuff where people actually know what you are on  
> about...
> Then we leave at a reasonable time to keep the before mentioned  
> partners
> happy...
>
> I think it could be a really good blend to keep the other half's  
> happy,
> let them know what these Perl meets are on about, and ummm have some  
> fun
> all together :)
>
> After all it's not a lot to ask of them once a year... And it could be
> the (going out with a/married to a) programmer moaning that other  
> girls
> just don't understand...
>
> Just a thought...
>
> Partner not required...
>
>
> Lyle
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