From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Wed Apr  1 01:25:32 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 01:25:32 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Perl 6 Tricks and Treats newsletter
Message-ID: <49D2B47C.4090706@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  Thought this may be of interest, if you haven't seen it already.
http://use.perl.org/~gabor/journal/38629


Lyle


From paulm at paulm.com  Wed Apr  1 07:52:47 2009
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 07:52:47 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Perl 6 Tricks and Treats newsletter
In-Reply-To: <49D2B47C.4090706@cosmicperl.com>
References: <49D2B47C.4090706@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0903312352y107c4bbbrfa1ebf01815d92eb@mail.gmail.com>

http://szabgab.com/talks/perl6/perl6-introduction.html

=snip

Perl 6 is not fully specified yet

Even what is specified is not fully implemented yet

I hardly know any Perl 6

This is my first experiment in creating training material for Perl 6.

=cut

Haha!


On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 1:25 AM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
> ?Thought this may be of interest, if you haven't seen it already.
> http://use.perl.org/~gabor/journal/38629
>
>
> Lyle
>
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>


From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Wed Apr  1 10:53:59 2009
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Wed,  1 Apr 2009 10:53:59 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Perl 6 Tricks and Treats newsletter
References: <49D2B47C.4090706@cosmicperl.com>
	<c37577dd0903312352y107c4bbbrfa1ebf01815d92eb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20090401095359.28354.9787@edison.ioppublishing.com>

On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 07:52:47 +0100, Paul Makepeace wrote:
> http://szabgab.com/talks/perl6/perl6-introduction.html
>
> =snip
>
> Perl 6 is not fully specified yet
>
> Even what is specified is not fully implemented yet
>
> I hardly know any Perl 6
>
> This is my first experiment in creating training material for Perl 6.
>
> =cut
>
> Haha!

As I'm sure someone must have said before, teaching a subject is often
the best way to learn it. If you bear in mind that this resembles the
blind leading the blind to some degree, what's been posted so far on
the tricks list is at least somewhat interesting, even if it's not
necessarily the whole truth and nothing but.

-- 
	Peter Haworth	pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com
"A carelessly planned project takes three times longer to complete
 than expected; a carefully planned project takes only twice as long."

This email (and attachments) are confidential and intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender, 
delete any copies and do not take action in reliance on it. Any views expressed are the author's and do not represent those of IOP, except where specifically 
stated. IOP takes reasonable precautions to protect against viruses but accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from virus infection. 
For the protection of IOP's systems and staff emails are scanned automatically.? 

Institute of Physics Registered in England under Registration No 293851 
Registered Office:  76/78 Portland Place, London W1B 1NT  
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From paulm at paulm.com  Wed Apr  1 11:07:13 2009
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:07:13 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Perl 6 Tricks and Treats newsletter
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20090401095359.28354.9787@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <49D2B47C.4090706@cosmicperl.com>
	<c37577dd0903312352y107c4bbbrfa1ebf01815d92eb@mail.gmail.com>
	<PGM.20090401095359.28354.9787@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0904010307g26e73652w643201d431afceba@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Peter Haworth
<pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 07:52:47 +0100, Paul Makepeace wrote:
>> http://szabgab.com/talks/perl6/perl6-introduction.html
>>
>> =snip
>>
>> Perl 6 is not fully specified yet
>>
>> Even what is specified is not fully implemented yet
>>
>> I hardly know any Perl 6
>>
>> This is my first experiment in creating training material for Perl 6.
>>
>> =cut
>>
>> Haha!
>
> As I'm sure someone must have said before, teaching a subject is often
> the best way to learn it. If you bear in mind that this resembles the
> blind leading the blind to some degree, what's been posted so far on
> the tricks list is at least somewhat interesting, even if it's not
> necessarily the whole truth and nothing but.

I'd also add the esteemed author knows his stuff. I just found that
intro pretty funny in especially with the phrase "what could possibly
go wrong?!" ringing in my head.

P

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Wed Apr  1 16:35:12 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:35:12 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Perl 6 Tricks and Treats newsletter
In-Reply-To: <c37577dd0904010307g26e73652w643201d431afceba@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49D2B47C.4090706@cosmicperl.com>	<c37577dd0903312352y107c4bbbrfa1ebf01815d92eb@mail.gmail.com>	<PGM.20090401095359.28354.9787@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<c37577dd0904010307g26e73652w643201d431afceba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49D389B0.4000507@cosmicperl.com>

Paul Makepeace wrote:
> I'd also add the esteemed author knows his stuff. I just found that
> intro pretty funny in especially with the phrase "what could possibly
> go wrong?!" ringing in my head.
>   

Perl 6 is certainly a brave new world... I'm feeling bad I haven't 
started exploring already.


Lyle


From alex.francis at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 16:59:56 2009
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 16:59:56 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Perl job in London with the beeb
Message-ID: <16afc9550904060859w2ed79deej85a2ada69f781d82@mail.gmail.com>

Just saw this come in via LinkedIn.
Alex

http://jobs.bbc.co.uk/fe/tpl_bbc01.asp?newms=jj&id=26804&aid=15436

Wanted - Senior Perl Developer to work on bbc.co.uk/iPlayer website

Job Title: Senior Software Engineer (Perl Developer)
(Perl, developer, object oriented, OO, OOA, OOD, web, catalyst, software)

The BBC FM&T Online Media Group is looking for an experienced Senior
Software Engineer (Perl Developer) with proven experience of
commercial web development to join a world-class team responsible for
delivering the next-generation bbc.co.uk/iPlayer website and other
online services.

We?re looking for highly skilled Perl developers with significant
experience working on high volume commercial web applications. We?re
looking for competence in one or more established web frameworks for
example, Catalyst, Mason, TT, Zope, Django or Spring. Additionally we
require candidates to have good knowledge of mySql and DBIx::Class or
other ORM frameworks .
You must be able to work in a fast changing environment with rapid
release cycles. You must have experience of software quality practice
e.g. TDD, continuous integration, version control, release automation,
and software quality metrics. While not essential it would be
beneficial for you to have some experience in one or more of the
following, memcached, Lucene, OpenSocial API experience and
PHP,Java,C#.
Division: Future Media and Technology
Location: London
Salary: circa 45,000 to 50,000 p.a. depending on experience.


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Tue Apr  7 15:48:02 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:48:02 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Who uses the Perl debugger?
Message-ID: <49DB67A2.3010501@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  I'm putting together some more Perl course material. One thing I see 
listed in the content of a lot of Perl courses in the Perl debugger. Now 
I'll be honest. I've never actually used the Perl debugger.

How popular is it? Have I been missing something vital, or is it only 
good for small scripts and not big projects?


Lyle


From psykx.out at googlemail.com  Tue Apr  7 16:04:34 2009
From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (max psykx)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:04:34 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Who uses the Perl debugger?
In-Reply-To: <49DB67A2.3010501@cosmicperl.com>
References: <49DB67A2.3010501@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <d2cea6400904070804h352546c0n4f3167f55778c019@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/7 Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com>:
> Hi All,
> ?I'm putting together some more Perl course material. One thing I see
> listed in the content of a lot of Perl courses in the Perl debugger. Now
> I'll be honest. I've never actually used the Perl debugger.
>
> How popular is it? Have I been missing something vital, or is it only
> good for small scripts and not big projects?
>
>
> Lyle
>
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>

I've never written a huge perl project, but when I'm writing perl
stuff I find it invaluable. IMHO It'd be much better if there was an
IDE which integrated with it.

Max


From alex.francis at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 16:54:42 2009
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:54:42 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Who uses the Perl debugger?
In-Reply-To: <d2cea6400904070804h352546c0n4f3167f55778c019@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49DB67A2.3010501@cosmicperl.com>
	<d2cea6400904070804h352546c0n4f3167f55778c019@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550904070854y194e63e6ved36ac328a38233@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 4:04 PM, max psykx <psykx.out at googlemail.com> wrote:
> I've never written a huge perl project, but when I'm writing perl
> stuff I find it invaluable. IMHO It'd be much better if there was an
> IDE which integrated with it.
>
> Max
>

Er... like Eclipse, for instance? (With the EPIC plugin)

http://www.epic-ide.org/index.php

I've used it too, although I don't have it up and running right now.

If you try it out, use the "testing" EPIC version, not the "stable"
one - I've found the "testing" one perfectly stable and much better
(can't remember why now, might be performance).

Alex

From alex.francis at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 17:00:33 2009
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:00:33 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Who uses the Perl debugger?
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550904070854y194e63e6ved36ac328a38233@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49DB67A2.3010501@cosmicperl.com>
	<d2cea6400904070804h352546c0n4f3167f55778c019@mail.gmail.com>
	<16afc9550904070854y194e63e6ved36ac328a38233@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550904070900t10aab563k59f72847c1e2ec8a@mail.gmail.com>

A bit more about this:

http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=562785

Links to an IBM tutorial - requires free registration.

Alex

From psykx.out at googlemail.com  Tue Apr  7 17:04:09 2009
From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (max psykx)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:04:09 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Who uses the Perl debugger?
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550904070854y194e63e6ved36ac328a38233@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49DB67A2.3010501@cosmicperl.com>
	<d2cea6400904070804h352546c0n4f3167f55778c019@mail.gmail.com>
	<16afc9550904070854y194e63e6ved36ac328a38233@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d2cea6400904070904o45a66116p3d6e6bcb5377c50b@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/7 Alex Francis <alex.francis at gmail.com>:
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 4:04 PM, max psykx <psykx.out at googlemail.com> wrote:
>> I've never written a huge perl project, but when I'm writing perl
>> stuff I find it invaluable. IMHO It'd be much better if there was an
>> IDE which integrated with it.
>>
>> Max
>>
>
> Er... like Eclipse, for instance? (With the EPIC plugin)
>
> http://www.epic-ide.org/index.php
>
> I've used it too, although I don't have it up and running right now.
>
> If you try it out, use the "testing" EPIC version, not the "stable"
> one - I've found the "testing" one perfectly stable and much better
> (can't remember why now, might be performance).
>
> Alex
I've tried eclipse with java, PHP and I attempted to try it with C and
C++ and it sucks. it's memory hogging buggy crap that wants to keep
building your software randomly and is simply bloated. Note: I've just
tried the zend version of eclipse which is simply the crappiest IDE I
have every seen and is actually unusable in a commercial setting AND
it costs near on a grand.
</rant>
I'm finally using komodo and I've never been happier.

Max

From alex.francis at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 17:11:53 2009
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:11:53 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Who uses the Perl debugger?
In-Reply-To: <d2cea6400904070904o45a66116p3d6e6bcb5377c50b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49DB67A2.3010501@cosmicperl.com>
	<d2cea6400904070804h352546c0n4f3167f55778c019@mail.gmail.com>
	<16afc9550904070854y194e63e6ved36ac328a38233@mail.gmail.com>
	<d2cea6400904070904o45a66116p3d6e6bcb5377c50b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550904070911m6f9764fat69f05692e1e5b8ec@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 5:04 PM, max psykx <psykx.out at googlemail.com> wrote:
> I've tried eclipse with java, PHP and I attempted to try it with C and
> C++ and it sucks. it's memory hogging buggy crap that wants to keep
> building your software randomly and is simply bloated. Note: I've just
> tried the zend version of eclipse which is simply the crappiest IDE I
> have every seen and is actually unusable in a commercial setting AND
> it costs near on a grand.
> </rant>

Oh well, works for me. You do want shedloads of RAM, but there's no
reason not to have that these days. I do turn off the perl auto
builder, which doesn't work very well.

> I'm finally using komodo and I've never been happier.

Keep meaning to try that..

This seems to say Komodo integrates with the debugger, does it not
work properly? http://docs.activestate.com/komodo/4.4/debugperl.html

Alex

From jamesbewley at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 17:18:34 2009
From: jamesbewley at gmail.com (James Bewley)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:18:34 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Who uses the Perl debugger?
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550904070854y194e63e6ved36ac328a38233@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49DB67A2.3010501@cosmicperl.com>
	<d2cea6400904070804h352546c0n4f3167f55778c019@mail.gmail.com>
	<16afc9550904070854y194e63e6ved36ac328a38233@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e43d2d410904070918ye3781ck8eeda3f061dba571@mail.gmail.com>

I think you'll find an interface to the Perl debugger for every decent
editor.  When I write Perl I normally end up using the Perl debugger at
least once and because my editor of choice is Vim I use
VimDebug<http://vim.sourceforge.net/scripts/script.php?script_id=663>.
VimDebug is an amazing integration to vim that allows you to use the Perl
debugger directly or via the source code and allows you to navigate the
source as if it were an editing session.

The Perl debugger is useful for all kinds of development; large and small
code bases.  It is particularly good for debugging a large code base with
which you are unfamiliar because you can 'see' how the code works and follow
the program flow without having to keep opening and closing files.  If your
not 100% sure what is going on or have lost track of the current program
state you can simply dump out any variable you choose.

Out of interest, how do you go about debugging without a debugger?


James



2009/4/7 Alex Francis <alex.francis at gmail.com>

> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 4:04 PM, max psykx <psykx.out at googlemail.com>
> wrote:
> > I've never written a huge perl project, but when I'm writing perl
> > stuff I find it invaluable. IMHO It'd be much better if there was an
> > IDE which integrated with it.
> >
> > Max
> >
>
> Er... like Eclipse, for instance? (With the EPIC plugin)
>
> http://www.epic-ide.org/index.php
>
> I've used it too, although I don't have it up and running right now.
>
> If you try it out, use the "testing" EPIC version, not the "stable"
> one - I've found the "testing" one perfectly stable and much better
> (can't remember why now, might be performance).
>
> Alex
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>
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From robin.ge at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 17:23:23 2009
From: robin.ge at gmail.com (Robin Edwards)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:23:23 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Who uses the Perl debugger?
In-Reply-To: <e43d2d410904070918ye3781ck8eeda3f061dba571@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49DB67A2.3010501@cosmicperl.com>
	<d2cea6400904070804h352546c0n4f3167f55778c019@mail.gmail.com> 
	<16afc9550904070854y194e63e6ved36ac328a38233@mail.gmail.com> 
	<e43d2d410904070918ye3781ck8eeda3f061dba571@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <303603130904070923v5ccf207aj273d606a82f171b@mail.gmail.com>

> Out of interest, how do you go about debugging without a debugger?
>
>
> James

Damn, you beat me to the inevitable 'man up and use a real editor'
post. Thanks :)

Rob

From david at cantrell.org.uk  Tue Apr  7 17:27:49 2009
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:27:49 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Who uses the Perl debugger?
In-Reply-To: <49DB67A2.3010501@cosmicperl.com>
References: <49DB67A2.3010501@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <20090407162749.GA16178@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 03:48:02PM +0100, Lyle wrote:

> I'm putting together some more Perl course material. One thing I see 
> listed in the content of a lot of Perl courses in the Perl debugger. Now 
> I'll be honest. I've never actually used the Perl debugger.
> 
> How popular is it? Have I been missing something vital, or is it only 
> good for small scripts and not big projects?

I've never used it either.  Well, not for anything more than using it to
see what it was like.  I do use Devel::Trace quite a bit though, and
liberally scatter print() statements around my code.  I also have some
code that I really ought to get round to uploading to the CPAN that logs
the input and output from functions, nicely formatting the output so you
can get a very clear idea of which functions call which functions, how
often they get called, where you recurse, and so on.

I try to test my code very frequently, rarely writing more than twenty
lines or so in between each run of the test suite, and I also *try* to
write tests for all the non-trivial functions in an application (not so
much in an individual CPAN module), even the private ones.  This means
that:
  * I can quickly zoom in on where the new bug is (it's in the 20 lines
    of code I just wrote);
  * I can be reasonably sure it's not in the functions that code calls
    (because they pass their tests)

Of course, I can still get bitten by "spooky action at a distance"
through things like global variables, accidentally trampling over
namespaces and by being insufficiently rigourous in testing those other
functions, but even so, it's rarely hard to find a bug in my perl code.
I spend far more time untangling messes I make when I misunderstand how
to use other peoples' libraries, or the protocol I'm meant to use to
talk to other applications, etc

-- 
David Cantrell | Minister for Arbitrary Justice

    If you have received this email in error, please add some nutmeg
    and egg whites, whisk, and place in a warm oven for 40 minutes.

From something at amias.org.uk  Tue Apr  7 17:30:16 2009
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:30:16 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Who uses the Perl debugger?
In-Reply-To: <49DB67A2.3010501@cosmicperl.com>
References: <49DB67A2.3010501@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <1239121816.7671.4.camel@localhost>

On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 15:48 +0100, Lyle wrote:
> Hi All,
>   I'm putting together some more Perl course material. One thing I see 
> listed in the content of a lot of Perl courses in the Perl debugger. Now 
> I'll be honest. I've never actually used the Perl debugger.
> 
> How popular is it? Have I been missing something vital, or is it only 
> good for small scripts and not big projects?

It doesnt usually make sense for cgi projects and especially mod-perl
as the scripts dont really make sense on the command line. Fast-cgi
goes some way to mitigating this but only a little bit.

It would be very interesting to have a cgi based debugger.

Toodle-pip
Amias


From david at cantrell.org.uk  Tue Apr  7 17:40:08 2009
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:40:08 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Who uses the Perl debugger?
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550904070911m6f9764fat69f05692e1e5b8ec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49DB67A2.3010501@cosmicperl.com>
	<d2cea6400904070804h352546c0n4f3167f55778c019@mail.gmail.com>
	<16afc9550904070854y194e63e6ved36ac328a38233@mail.gmail.com>
	<d2cea6400904070904o45a66116p3d6e6bcb5377c50b@mail.gmail.com>
	<16afc9550904070911m6f9764fat69f05692e1e5b8ec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090407164008.GI7021@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 05:11:53PM +0100, Alex Francis wrote:

> Oh well, [Eclipse] works for me. You do want shedloads of RAM, but
> there's no reason not to have that these days.

There's at least two reasons.

First, it costs money, and some older machines (like the laptop I
pensioned off just before Christmas) can't take any more memory.  I
expect to get a good five years out of any of my hardware.

Second, on my shiny new machine with a meeeelion jiggabytes of memory,
there's very little free memory cos I've taken the opportunity to run a
couple of virtual machines and a Real Database.

-- 
David Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive

You can't judge a book by its cover, unless you're a religious nutcase

From jamie at shareable.org  Tue Apr  7 18:03:42 2009
From: jamie at shareable.org (Jamie Lokier)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 18:03:42 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Who uses the Perl debugger?
In-Reply-To: <e43d2d410904070918ye3781ck8eeda3f061dba571@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49DB67A2.3010501@cosmicperl.com>
	<d2cea6400904070804h352546c0n4f3167f55778c019@mail.gmail.com>
	<16afc9550904070854y194e63e6ved36ac328a38233@mail.gmail.com>
	<e43d2d410904070918ye3781ck8eeda3f061dba571@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090407170342.GA31824@shareable.org>

James Bewley wrote:
> Out of interest, how do you go about debugging without a debugger?

The Linus Torvalds way: by reading the code and observing its behaviour.
Changing the inputs and adding print statements are good too.

I've never felt the need to use Perl's debugger because it's so easy
to slip in a few print statements here and there.

I do use GDB with C code occasionally.

But typically I find big programs can't be monitored in a debugger
anyway, because they're doing so many things in parallel in a live
system.  What helps is good tracing and logging, but then you need to
be able to interpret logs and deduce what's wrong from that.  Same
skills as debugging small programs without a debugger.

-- Jamie

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Tue Apr  7 18:30:28 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:30:28 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Who uses the Perl debugger?
In-Reply-To: <20090407170342.GA31824@shareable.org>
References: <49DB67A2.3010501@cosmicperl.com>	<d2cea6400904070804h352546c0n4f3167f55778c019@mail.gmail.com>	<16afc9550904070854y194e63e6ved36ac328a38233@mail.gmail.com>	<e43d2d410904070918ye3781ck8eeda3f061dba571@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090407170342.GA31824@shareable.org>
Message-ID: <49DB8DB4.2020207@cosmicperl.com>

Jamie Lokier wrote:
> James Bewley wrote:
>   
>> Out of interest, how do you go about debugging without a debugger?
>>     
>
> The Linus Torvalds way: by reading the code and observing its behaviour.
> Changing the inputs and adding print statements are good too

Yep. I do this, and all the things David listed, tests, logging etc.

Komodo's smart editing background check generally picks up most of the 
silly little mistakes. It also integrates with the perl debugger, I gave 
it a go once, but for me it seems a lot quicker to just look at the code 
and follow things in my head...

Komodo's perl debugger can also simulate a CGI environment. Amias maybe 
it's what your looking for? It works on Linux as well as windows, and is 
built off the Mozilla platform.

David, that function IO logger sounds like it could be very useful. I 
vote for uploading it to CPAN.


Lyle


From andy at mentalist.co.uk  Tue Apr  7 22:43:13 2009
From: andy at mentalist.co.uk (Andy Gale)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 22:43:13 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Who uses the Perl debugger?
In-Reply-To: <49DB8DB4.2020207@cosmicperl.com>
References: <49DB67A2.3010501@cosmicperl.com>
	<d2cea6400904070804h352546c0n4f3167f55778c019@mail.gmail.com>
	<16afc9550904070854y194e63e6ved36ac328a38233@mail.gmail.com>
	<e43d2d410904070918ye3781ck8eeda3f061dba571@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090407170342.GA31824@shareable.org>
	<49DB8DB4.2020207@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <a3639e6d0904071443g799368b0lc01442be182d0f6c@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 6:30 PM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:

> Yep. I do this, and all the things David listed, tests, logging etc.
>
> Komodo's smart editing background check generally picks up most of the
> silly little mistakes. It also integrates with the perl debugger, I gave
> it a go once, but for me it seems a lot quicker to just look at the code
> and follow things in my head...

I've found the Komodo perl syntax/idiocy check very fast and helpful
compared to similar systems in Netbeans and Eclipse. Komodo is
definitely worth a trial run.

-- 
Andy Gale
W: www.andy-gale.com
T: http://twitter.com/andygale

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Wed Apr 15 00:56:25 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 00:56:25 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Bristol Pub Czar
Message-ID: <49E522A9.6080409@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  I've appointed a Pub Czar for the groups Bristol meets. 
Congratulations Peter ;)

So from now on all complaints as to Bristol venues announced late, can 
be directed at him and not me :-P


Lyle


From nigel at turbo10.com  Wed Apr 15 08:04:04 2009
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 08:04:04 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Bristol&Bath.pm Social Meeting - The
	Raven, Bath - 7pm Tue 	21st April
Message-ID: <50fec4060904150004nbdb8a3eg355f8af7a432b1d8@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

      It's time to have another meeting of the Bristol and Bath Perl Mongers
group [1] in Bath. There will be lightning talks (optional), good
conversation, beer and pies! What more could a Perl monger want? Everyone is
welcome and you don't even need to know anything about Perl.

     * When*

7pm, Tue 21st of April

      *Where*

The Raven Pub [2]
Queen St
Bath

The pub is a little tricky to find but if you print out this map[3] - you
should be fine.

See you there,


Nige


[1]   http://perl.bristolbath.org
[2]   http://www.theravenofbath.co.uk
[3]   http://www.theravenofbath.co.uk/how_to_find_us.html

p.s. please forward on to any forums you think are appropriate
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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Wed Apr 15 15:29:22 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:29:22 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Bristol&Bath.pm Social Meeting - The
 Raven, Bath - 7pm Tue 	21st April
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060904150004nbdb8a3eg355f8af7a432b1d8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060904150004nbdb8a3eg355f8af7a432b1d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49E5EF42.4090707@cosmicperl.com>

Nigel Hamilton wrote:
> Hi,
>
>       It's time to have another meeting of the Bristol and Bath Perl 
> Mongers group [1] in Bath.

I'll probably be driving from Bristol so let me know if anyone wants a lift.


Lyle


From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Thu Apr 16 15:12:30 2009
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:12:30 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Bristol Pub Czar
References: <49E522A9.6080409@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20090416141230.5266.9820@edison.ioppublishing.com>

On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 00:56:25 +0100, Lyle wrote:
> I've appointed a Pub Czar for the group's Bristol meets.
> Congratulations Peter ;)

Thanks, Lyle. As my first official act, I'm going to boycott the Bath
meet next week, but only because it's my wife's birthday.

> So from now on all complaints as to Bristol venues announced late,
> can be directed at him and not me :-P

I've put a regular reminder into my schedule, so hopefully that won't
be necessary too often.

-- 
	Peter Haworth	pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com
"Don't worry about people stealing your ideas.
 If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats."
		-- Howard Aiken

This email (and attachments) are confidential and intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender, 
delete any copies and do not take action in reliance on it. Any views expressed are the author's and do not represent those of IOP, except where specifically 
stated. IOP takes reasonable precautions to protect against viruses but accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from virus infection. 
For the protection of IOP's systems and staff emails are scanned automatically.? 

Institute of Physics Registered in England under Registration No 293851 
Registered Office:  76/78 Portland Place, London W1B 1NT  
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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Thu Apr 16 20:49:56 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:49:56 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] OT: Best Java and UML Book?
Message-ID: <49E78BE4.4090606@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  I need to read up on Java and UML ready for Uni this year. I was 
wondering if anyone had book recommendations? I know this could probably 
be better posted to a Java list. But maybe the people who know Java and 
Perl, know the best Java books for Perl people?

  Preferably no more than 300 or so pages.


Lyle



From nigel at turbo10.com  Thu Apr 16 21:47:05 2009
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:47:05 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] OT: Best Java and UML Book?
In-Reply-To: <49E78BE4.4090606@cosmicperl.com>
References: <49E78BE4.4090606@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <50fec4060904161347u59dec1b3occ1384b018205714@mail.gmail.com>

HI Lyle,

>
>  I need to read up on Java


Bruce Eckel - Thinking in Java (could be a little long though).
Java CookBook (for comparison to Perl CookBook) see also the PLEAC project (
http://pleac.sourceforge.net/) <http://pleac.sourceforge.net/> for help you
translating from Perl to Java.


> and UML ready for Uni this year.


UML in a Nutshell

Nige
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From nigel at turbo10.com  Thu Apr 16 21:49:20 2009
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:49:20 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Bristol Pub Czar
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20090416141230.5266.9820@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <49E522A9.6080409@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20090416141230.5266.9820@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <50fec4060904161349x1ea97fdcn1e7bbd0c5c049c39@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> > I've appointed a Pub Czar for the group's Bristol meets.
> > Congratulations Peter ;)
>
> Thanks, Lyle. As my first official act, I'm going to boycott the Bath
> meet next week, but only because it's my wife's birthday.
>

HI Peter,

     Are you sure you don't want to bring her along? ;-)

Nige
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From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Fri Apr 17 10:18:50 2009
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:18:50 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Bristol Pub Czar
References: <49E522A9.6080409@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20090416141230.5266.9820@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<50fec4060904161349x1ea97fdcn1e7bbd0c5c049c39@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20090417091850.5266.9821@edison.ioppublishing.com>

On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:49:20 +0100, Nigel Hamilton wrote:
> > As my first official act, I'm going to boycott the Bath
> > meet next week, but only because it's my wife's birthday.
> 
>      Are you sure you don't want to bring her along? ;-)

I'd be happy to, especially as I'd maintain my unbroken attendance record,
but I don't think she'd be terribly impressed.

I hope the rest of you have a good time; I'll be at home, tucking into
Belgian chocolate cake (which is neither Belgian nor cake, but tastes
great nonetheless).

-- 
	Peter Haworth	pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com
"Philosophy department - you don't have to be to work here, but it helps"

This email (and attachments) are confidential and intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender, 
delete any copies and do not take action in reliance on it. Any views expressed are the author's and do not represent those of IOP, except where specifically 
stated. IOP takes reasonable precautions to protect against viruses but accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from virus infection. 
For the protection of IOP's systems and staff emails are scanned automatically.? 

Institute of Physics Registered in England under Registration No 293851 
Registered Office:  76/78 Portland Place, London W1B 1NT  
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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Mon Apr 20 15:06:13 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:06:13 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Perl6 Experiences
Message-ID: <49EC8155.3040005@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  I've been caught up in a Rakudo hacking vortex for the last 2 weeks. 
It started with me promising myself I'd look at Rakudo but only for an 
hour...
  I've ended up helping to fix bugs, writing guides and even added to 
the Perl 6 Specification and coded new features for Rakudo.
  I'm certainly not the best programmer on this list, I'd only class 
myself as intermediate at best... But even I'm able to make a 
contribution to Perl 6 development. That leaves most of you with no 
excuse :-P
  I'll warn you though, 'Hacking on Perl 6 is like a drug, there is a 
good chance you'll get addicted!'.

To make things easier for you (or anyone else) to get / learn everything 
you need to help, I've covered it here in a guide:-
http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?roadmap_to_helping_with_development

My first 3 days of hacking on Rakudo and Parrot are covered here in my 
blog:-
http://perl.bristolbath.org/blog/lyle/2009/04/first-perl-6-experiences.html
http://perl.bristolbath.org/blog/lyle/2009/04/first-perl-6-experiences-part-2.html


Lyle


From something at amias.org.uk  Mon Apr 20 17:20:57 2009
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:20:57 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Bristol&Bath.pm Social Meeting - The
 Raven, Bath - 7pm Tue 	21st April
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060904150004nbdb8a3eg355f8af7a432b1d8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060904150004nbdb8a3eg355f8af7a432b1d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240244457.9429.51.camel@localhost>

On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 08:04 +0100, Nigel Hamilton wrote:
> Hi,
> 
>       It's time to have another meeting of the Bristol and Bath Perl
> Mongers group [1] in Bath. There will be lightning talks (optional),
> good conversation, beer and pies! What more could a Perl monger want?
> Everyone is welcome and you don't even need to know anything about
> Perl.

I was promised some Perl 6 and a pink bbq but all i got was these
lousy pies and syrupy beer !

Toodle-pip
Amias



From nigel at turbo10.com  Mon Apr 20 17:53:31 2009
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:53:31 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Bristol&Bath.pm Social Meeting - The
	Raven, Bath - 7pm Tue 21st April
In-Reply-To: <1240244457.9429.51.camel@localhost>
References: <50fec4060904150004nbdb8a3eg355f8af7a432b1d8@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240244457.9429.51.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <50fec4060904200953u227342e4oa7093915848f374@mail.gmail.com>

> >       It's time to have another meeting of the Bristol and Bath Perl
> > Mongers group [1] in Bath. There will be lightning talks (optional),
> > good conversation, beer and pies! What more could a Perl monger want?
> > Everyone is welcome and you don't even need to know anything about
> > Perl.
>
> I was promised some Perl 6 and a pink bbq but all i got was these
> lousy pies and syrupy beer !
>

Hi,

    Well it sounds like Lyle can tell us some exciting tales of Perl6
adventures - as for the pink barbie let's do that in June.

NIge
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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Tue Apr 21 16:21:47 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:21:47 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Perl meet
Message-ID: <49EDE48B.70901@cosmicperl.com>

Hi Nige,
  Can I get your mobile just encase I'm late or get lost?

Lyle

From nigel at turbo10.com  Tue Apr 21 17:08:14 2009
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:08:14 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Perl meet
In-Reply-To: <49EDE48B.70901@cosmicperl.com>
References: <49EDE48B.70901@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <50fec4060904210908q709eaff0o561d473b7b732562@mail.gmail.com>

HI Lyle,
    Could be just you and I tonight .... unfortunately my mobile is pretty
dead ... I'll try and revive it -- the number is 07901 815 577.

NIge


2009/4/21 Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com>

> Hi Nige,
>  Can I get your mobile just encase I'm late or get lost?
>
> Lyle
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>



-- 
NIgel Hamilton
CEO
T10 = Search Engine + Ad Network

Turbo10 Limited,
Fairfax House,
15 Fulwood Place,
London WC1V 6AY
T:  +44 (0) 117 946 6397
F:   +44 (0) 117 923 8672
E:  nigel at t10.com
W:  http://t10.com
----------------------------------------------------
T10 = Search Engine + Ad Network                                       Visit
http://t10.com
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From something at amias.org.uk  Tue Apr 21 17:21:55 2009
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:21:55 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Bristol&Bath.pm Social Meeting - The
 Raven, Bath - 7pm Tue 21st April
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060904200953u227342e4oa7093915848f374@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060904150004nbdb8a3eg355f8af7a432b1d8@mail.gmail.com>
	<1240244457.9429.51.camel@localhost>
	<50fec4060904200953u227342e4oa7093915848f374@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1240330915.7622.50.camel@localhost>

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 17:53 +0100, Nigel Hamilton wrote:

> 
>     Well it sounds like Lyle can tell us some exciting tales of Perl6
> adventures - as for the pink barbie let's do that in June.

eek , sorry guys got to be a dorkbot tonight in bristle , nothing
personal but big tings a gwaaan. Please choose someone amongst your
number to get a bit too drunk and start talking shit.

Toodle-pip
Amias



From alex.francis at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 11:52:21 2009
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:52:21 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] How to find circular dependencies between modules
Message-ID: <16afc9550904240352o1d4c4629j128508198ade2882@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone have an easy way to find circular dependency loops between modules?

I'm talking about cases like

package Foo::Bar;
use Foo::Boo;

package Foo::Boo;
use Foo::Bif;

package Foo::Bif;
use Foo:Bar;

At compile time this causes warnings about redefined subs, but we
often don't spot these warnings until some time after the change was
made that introduced the circular dependency. The warnings tell you
what was redefined, but don't give you the full loop, which makes it
difficult to track down where the circular dependency was introduced.

At the moment I'm making educated guesses based on recent commits and
some grepping, hoping there's a nice Perlish shortcut. Maybe something
using a sub ref on @INC?

Alex

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Apr 24 15:22:16 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 15:22:16 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] How to find circular dependencies between
	modules
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550904240352o1d4c4629j128508198ade2882@mail.gmail.com>
References: <16afc9550904240352o1d4c4629j128508198ade2882@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49F1CB18.5010006@cosmicperl.com>

Alex Francis wrote:
> Does anyone have an easy way to find circular dependency loops between modules?
>
> I'm talking about cases like
>
> package Foo::Bar;
> use Foo::Boo;
>
> package Foo::Boo;
> use Foo::Bif;
>
> package Foo::Bif;
> use Foo:Bar;
>
> At compile time this causes warnings about redefined subs, but we
> often don't spot these warnings until some time after the change was
> made that introduced the circular dependency. The warnings tell you
> what was redefined, but don't give you the full loop, which makes it
> difficult to track down where the circular dependency was introduced.
>
> At the moment I'm making educated guesses based on recent commits and
> some grepping, hoping there's a nice Perlish shortcut. Maybe something
> using a sub ref on @INC?
>   

Can't say I've come across that issue before, but maybe these modules 
can help??

http://search.cpan.org/~mattlaw/Module-Mask-Deps-0.06/lib/Module/Mask/Deps.pm
http://search.cpan.org/~bdfoy/Module-Extract-Use-0.13/lib/Use.pm


Lyle


From alex.francis at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 08:40:28 2009
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 08:40:28 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] How to find circular dependencies between
	modules
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550904240352o1d4c4629j128508198ade2882@mail.gmail.com>
References: <16afc9550904240352o1d4c4629j128508198ade2882@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550904250040q7c062d74g49480aba0bf52861@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Alex Francis <alex.francis at gmail.com> wrote:
> Does anyone have an easy way to find circular dependency loops between modules?
>
> I'm talking about cases like
> ...

Turns out my example was bad and there's no real issue here - the
problem was my misinterpretation of what "perl -c" does. I was using
"perl -c" to compile-check a load of module files which are normally
loaded via "use", but "perl -c" behaves differently to "use".

Summary in case it's useful to anyone: "require" (and therefore "use")
won't load the same module twice and hence won't cause my "subroutine
redefined" warnings. "perl -c" doesn't count as a "require" i.e.
doesn't populate $INC{file}. So if you "perl -c" a module, that at
some point during compilation comes across a "use" that resolves to
the same original file, it will go ahead and re-evaluate the original
file and generate the redefined warnings.

So it looks like "perl -MModule -e 1" is a better commandline compile
check for Perl modules than "perl -c Module.pm".

Via http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=389286 and perldoc -f require

Alex

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Sat Apr 25 14:48:21 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 14:48:21 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Portability Gems
Message-ID: <49F314A5.5010908@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  I've just come across some portability gems on CPAN, thought I'd share 
encase you hadn't come across them yet:-

Devel::UseAnyFunc - Helps you select the best modules available for a 
particular functions, example Clone::Any
DBIx::AnyDBD - Grab a DBD that's available
DBIx::SQLEngine - Simpler than DBIx::Class but very useful, works with 
DBIx::AnyDBD


Lyle


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Tue Apr 28 23:23:14 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 23:23:14 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] New IRC channel
Message-ID: <49F781D2.6080802@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  I know when this list was first created there was interest in an IRC 
channel. Well I've caught a bit of an IRC bug recently with #perl6 and 
#parrot.
  The only UK Perl channels I could find are #miltonkeynes.pm and 
#london.pm. The latter of which seems to be mostly off topic. Rather 
than do a channel just for this list, I though we may as well do a UK 
wide one that's mostly on topic and has our same friendly driven rules. 
At some point I'll put a log bot on there that's publicly viewable to 
help reinforce this...

Anyway:-

chat.freenode.net
#ukperl


Lyle


From psykx.out at googlemail.com  Wed Apr 29 00:26:40 2009
From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (Max)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 00:26:40 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] New IRC channel
In-Reply-To: <49F781D2.6080802@cosmicperl.com>
References: <49F781D2.6080802@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <49F790B0.7090007@googlemail.com>

Lyle wrote:
> Hi All,
>   I know when this list was first created there was interest in an IRC 
> channel. Well I've caught a bit of an IRC bug recently with #perl6 and 
> #parrot.
>   The only UK Perl channels I could find are #miltonkeynes.pm and 
> #london.pm. The latter of which seems to be mostly off topic. Rather 
> than do a channel just for this list, I though we may as well do a UK 
> wide one that's mostly on topic and has our same friendly driven rules. 
> At some point I'll put a log bot on there that's publicly viewable to 
> help reinforce this...
>
> Anyway:-
>
> chat.freenode.net
> #ukperl
>
>
> Lyle
>
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>   
I shall join tomorrow from psykx at uberpussy.net however it's a friends 
server which allows me to appear online when I'm away, so I can read 
back posts. I'd recommend the same to everybody who can.

Max

From dave at dave.org.uk  Wed Apr 29 06:14:37 2009
From: dave at dave.org.uk (Dave Cross)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 06:14:37 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] New IRC channel
In-Reply-To: <49F781D2.6080802@cosmicperl.com>
References: <49F781D2.6080802@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <49F7E23D.7010002@dave.org.uk>

Lyle wrote:

> chat.freenode.net
> #ukperl

Why not put it on irc.perl.org with most of the other Perl-based irc
channels?

Dave...

From mjr at phonecoop.coop  Wed Apr 29 08:51:21 2009
From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 08:51:21 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] New IRC channel
In-Reply-To: <49F7E23D.7010002@dave.org.uk>
References: <49F781D2.6080802@cosmicperl.com>
 <49F7E23D.7010002@dave.org.uk>
Message-ID: <49f806f9.TeB6Xe0CxGmfvETX%mjr@phonecoop.coop>

Dave Cross <dave at dave.org.uk> wrote:
> Lyle wrote:
> > chat.freenode.net > > #ukperl
>
> Why not put it on irc.perl.org with most of the other Perl-based irc
> channels?

1. Because irc.perl.org seems not to be indexed by search engines like
http://irc.netsplit.de/networks/ so it's harder for people to find;

2. Because we like using a network that spent donations on an oper's
mobile phone bill.

HTH,
-- 
MJ Ray (slef)
Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small
worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/
(Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237

From robin.ge at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 09:09:54 2009
From: robin.ge at gmail.com (Robin Edwards)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:09:54 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] New IRC channel
In-Reply-To: <49f806f9.TeB6Xe0CxGmfvETX%mjr@phonecoop.coop>
References: <49F781D2.6080802@cosmicperl.com> <49F7E23D.7010002@dave.org.uk> 
	<49f806f9.TeB6Xe0CxGmfvETX%mjr@phonecoop.coop>
Message-ID: <303603130904290109w5834ddadt119e1298f0ea35c6@mail.gmail.com>

Why not use the bblug channel on irc.perl.org?

Rob

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Wed Apr 29 11:05:23 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:05:23 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] New IRC channel
In-Reply-To: <49F7E23D.7010002@dave.org.uk>
References: <49F781D2.6080802@cosmicperl.com> <49F7E23D.7010002@dave.org.uk>
Message-ID: <49F82663.5080009@cosmicperl.com>

Dave Cross wrote:
> Lyle wrote:
>
>   
>> chat.freenode.net
>> #ukperl
>>     
>
> Why not put it on irc.perl.org with most of the other Perl-based irc
> channels?
>   

Feels nice to spread out. Freenode is uk driven, #perl6 is on there as well.


Lyle

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Wed Apr 29 11:06:33 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:06:33 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] New IRC channel
In-Reply-To: <49f806f9.TeB6Xe0CxGmfvETX%mjr@phonecoop.coop>
References: <49F781D2.6080802@cosmicperl.com> <49F7E23D.7010002@dave.org.uk>
	<49f806f9.TeB6Xe0CxGmfvETX%mjr@phonecoop.coop>
Message-ID: <49F826A9.5090105@cosmicperl.com>

MJ Ray wrote:
> 2. Because we like using a network that spent donations on an oper's
> mobile phone bill.
>   

Could you elaborate?


Lyle


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Wed Apr 29 11:08:45 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:08:45 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] New IRC channel
In-Reply-To: <303603130904290109w5834ddadt119e1298f0ea35c6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49F781D2.6080802@cosmicperl.com> <49F7E23D.7010002@dave.org.uk>
	<49f806f9.TeB6Xe0CxGmfvETX%mjr@phonecoop.coop>
	<303603130904290109w5834ddadt119e1298f0ea35c6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49F8272D.40906@cosmicperl.com>

Robin Edwards wrote:
> Why not use the bblug channel on irc.perl.org?
>   

Was hoping for something UK wide...


Lyle


From david at cantrell.org.uk  Wed Apr 29 12:35:20 2009
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:35:20 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] New IRC channel
In-Reply-To: <49F781D2.6080802@cosmicperl.com>
References: <49F781D2.6080802@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <20090429113520.GC4739@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 11:23:14PM +0100, Lyle wrote:

>   The only UK Perl channels I could find are #miltonkeynes.pm and 
> #london.pm. The latter of which seems to be mostly off topic...

It's a social channel, not specifically a perl channel.  Although perl
content is very much on-topic and some quite thorny problems
occasionally get discussed on it.  Just like the mailing list really.

-- 
David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic

     Repent through spending

From mjr at phonecoop.coop  Wed Apr 29 14:13:19 2009
From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:13:19 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] New IRC channel
In-Reply-To: <49F826A9.5090105@cosmicperl.com>
References: <49F781D2.6080802@cosmicperl.com> <49F7E23D.7010002@dave.org.uk>
	<49f806f9.TeB6Xe0CxGmfvETX%mjr@phonecoop.coop>
	<49F826A9.5090105@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <49f8526f.7XGo3BHx7AM6rJmE%mjr@phonecoop.coop>

Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
> MJ Ray wrote:
> > 2. Because we like using a network that spent donations on an oper's
> > mobile phone bill.
>
> Could you elaborate?

That oper's gone, may he rest in peace, but for information:

  "According to the immaculately kept records of the fund, a month
  later the fund's trustee (a Mr Levin) decided to pay Rob Levin's
  $228.36 mobile phone bill. From that point the records end. However,
  when Mr Levin left his job at Levin & Associates in his home town of
  Houston, Texas in May 2002, he decided for second time that the
  network needed a full-time staffer.

  Unfortunately, other members of the community began to grow angry at
  its new direction, especially after Mr Levin mass mailed other
  communities across the Internet under the Open Projects name asking
  for money."

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/01/29/buy_a_piece_of_net/

As to UK-driven: in August 2008, the PDPC incorporated as an English
CLG, but does not seem to state its company number or registered
office address on its freenode website (isn't that a legal requirement
on a site where you're soliciting donations?), MOTDs or WHOIS entries.
It doesn't even own its pdpc.org.uk domain name.

PDPC is not a charity - why donate to a mismanaged private company?

Your choice, of course.
-- 
MJ Ray (slef)
Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small
worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/
(Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Thu Apr 30 03:20:04 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 03:20:04 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Free Perl course for local Schools and colleges
Message-ID: <49F90AD4.2080509@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  I'm about to send this document out to some local schools I've made 
contact with. I was hoping I could get a little feedback on the content 
before it the first one goes out (later today). After all, as you 
already know my unglish eint grate :)


Software Programming

A local programming group is offering schools and colleges, a free 
evening software programming course for their students. Details of which 
follow:-


What is software programming?

It is the art of designing and writing computer programs, such as games, 
desktop applications and internet services. All the programs you see and 
use on your computer have been designed and coded by a programmer or 
team of programmers.


What is Perl?

Perl is a programming language. There are lots of different programming 
languages, some suited to making specific pieces of software, others can 
be applied to a broad range of applications. A programming language is 
designed to be human readable and writeable, it gets translated into the 
ones and naughts of machine code by a compiler. Perl is what's known as 
a high level language, meaning it's far away from coding in ones and 
naughts.


Why is Perl a good first language?

Perl borrows syntax and ways of doing things from older, lower level 
languages such as C, C++, Pascal and LISP. It has also greatly 
influenced newer languages such as PHP, Python, Ruby and JavaScript. 
This makes Perl an excellent entrance point into programming. Learning 
Perl makes it much easier to learn other languages in the future. 
Although many people find Perl is the only programming language they need.


Some Perl examples

The popular network game Frozen Bubble is made in Perl.
http://www.frozen-bubble.org/

The most popular spam filtering software for internet servers is coded 
in Perl.
http://spamassassin.apache.org/

The webs most popular film and movie site is powered by Perl
http://www.imdb.com/


Jobs as programmers

Programming isn't easy, it requires a lot of practice and skill. 
Employers seeking software developers most often test a programmers 
ability to write code and solve problems. Practical skills and 
experience are commonly valued more than computing qualifications. For 
many programming languages, such as Perl, there is no official 
certification.


What does the course provide?

The course teaches the basics of computer programming. How to create 
small programs in Perl that read input from the user and save things to 
disk. Most importantly, the course aims to show students how they can 
teach themselves further programming skills.


How much do courses like this usually cost?

Typical beginning Perl programming courses are 5 days long at a cost of 
around ?2,000 per student. A google for "Perl programming course" brings 
up examples.


Why is this course offered for free?

Perl itself is open source and free to download. It's not a commercial 
product like Microsoft Windows. The local Perl moungers group wants to 
promote Perl as a programming language and bring new blood to the 
language. After all the beginners of today are the gurus of tomorrow. 
The course is only available to teenagers (ages 13 to 19). Considering 
the usually high cost of attending such a course, we hope this kind of 
scheme will be picked up all around the country. Giving students of all 
financial backgrounds the chance to catch the programming bug.


Who are Perl Moungers?

Perl moungers are social groups of Perl programmers. The local group is 
Bristol and Bath Perl Moungers ran by Lyle Hopkins. They hold regular 
meetings with conversations orientated around programming in general. 
Their web site can be found at http://perl.bristolbath.org


Who is Lyle?

Lyle is a self employed computer programmer, who has been developing 
Perl based internet applications for 10 years. He is the current 
Managing Director of Cosmic Networks Ltd, a software development 
company. He has a current enhanced disclosure CRB check.



Lyle


From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Thu Apr 30 16:00:18 2009
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:00:18 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Free Perl course for local Schools and colleges
References: <49F90AD4.2080509@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20090430150018.23423.9841@edison.ioppublishing.com>

On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 03:20:04 +0100, Lyle wrote:
> I was hoping I could get a little feedback on the content before it
> the first one goes out (later today)

This might not be early enough, but here's my take:


> Software Programming
>
> A local programming group is offering schools and colleges, a free
> evening software programming course for their students. Details of
> which follow:-

A free evening course for beginners in software programming is being
offered to local school and college students.

["Details ..." is superfluous]


> What is Perl?
>
> Perl is a programming language. There are lots of different
> programming languages, some suited to making specific pieces of
> software, others can be applied to a broad range of applications. A
> programming language is designed to be human readable and writeable,
> it gets translated into the ones and naughts of machine code by a
> compiler. Perl is what's known as a high level language, meaning
> it's far away from coding in ones and naughts.


There are many different programming languages; some specially
designed writing for specific types of software, while others, like
Perl, can be applied to a broad range of software. High level
programming languages, such as Perl, are designed so that programs may
be easily read and written by humans. Such programs are then
translated by a compiler into the ones and zeroes which are understood
by computers.

["naught" is nothing, "nought" is zero, and "zero" sounds
better anyway]

> Why is Perl a good first language?

[It isn't, as Larry said: "Perl should only be studied as a second
language. A good first language would be English."]

Why is Perl a good first programming language?


> Although many people find Perl is the only programming language
> they need.

However, many people ...

> The webs most popular film and movie site is powered by Perl
> http://www.imdb.com/

The web's ...

> Jobs as programmers
>
> Programming isn't easy, it requires a lot of practice and skill.

s/,/;/

> Employers seeking software developers most often test a programmers

"test a programmer's" or "test programmers'". "most" is superfluous.


> What does the course provide?
>
> The course teaches the basics of computer programming. How to create
> small programs in Perl that read input from the user and save things
> to disk.

... save output to disk or display it to the user.

[You probably also need to mention something else, as that's not very
inspiring on its own. Do you include any web stuff? Are any of the
programs interesting in their own right, such as simple games
(hangman, the animal guessing game)?]


> Most importantly, the course aims to show students how they can
> teach themselves further programming skills.

[well worth mentioning]


> Why is this course offered for free?
>
> Perl itself is open source and free to download. It's not a
> commercial product like Microsoft Windows. The local Perl moungers
> group wants to

[Either "mongers" or "mungers", please; I don't like "m[ou]ngers"
much at the best of times, but I really hate the idea of coining
"moungers" from it]


> promote Perl as a programming language and bring new blood to the

useful language [you can't deny that it's a programming language]

> language. After all the beginners of today are the gurus of
> tomorrow.

After all, the beginners ...

> The course is only available to teenagers (ages 13 to 19).
> Considering

The course is available to students in Key Stages 4 and 5. [Try not to
sound too lecherous, and don't put absolute bounds on the range with
"only" and specific ages]

> the usually high cost of attending such a course, we hope this
> kind of scheme will be picked up all around the country. Giving
> students of all

... country, giving ...

> financial backgrounds the chance to catch the programming bug.
>
>
> Who are Perl Moungers?

Mongers

> Perl moungers are social groups of Perl programmers. The local
> group is

[mongers aren't groups; they're people who *may* be members of groups]

Perl Monger groups provide arenas in which Perl programmers may
communicate both socially and on technical matters, and usually serve
specific geographical regions.

> Bristol and Bath Perl Moungers ran by Lyle Hopkins. They hold
> regular

... Mongers, run by ...

-- 
	Peter Haworth	pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com
"I couldn't even find anything to read. The hotel shop 
 only had two decent books, and I'd written both of them."
		-- Douglas Adams, the Salmon of Doubt

This email (and attachments) are confidential and intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender, 
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From Greg.Marsh at uwe.ac.uk  Thu Apr 30 09:38:18 2009
From: Greg.Marsh at uwe.ac.uk (Greg Marsh BIT Staff)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 09:38:18 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Free Perl course for local Schools and colleges
In-Reply-To: <49F90AD4.2080509@cosmicperl.com>
References: <49F90AD4.2080509@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <49F9637A.7020507@uwe.ac.uk>

Hi Lyle,

Two things.

It's noughts not naughts (or perhaps zeroes) and maybe you could mention 
where the term moungers originates.

cheers
Greg


Lyle wrote:
> Hi All,
>   I'm about to send this document out to some local schools I've made 
> contact with. I was hoping I could get a little feedback on the content 
> before it the first one goes out (later today). After all, as you 
> already know my unglish eint grate :)
> 
> 
> Software Programming
> 
> A local programming group is offering schools and colleges, a free 
> evening software programming course for their students. Details of which 
> follow:-
> 
> 
> What is software programming?
> 
> It is the art of designing and writing computer programs, such as games, 
> desktop applications and internet services. All the programs you see and 
> use on your computer have been designed and coded by a programmer or 
> team of programmers.
> 
> 
> What is Perl?
> 
> Perl is a programming language. There are lots of different programming 
> languages, some suited to making specific pieces of software, others can 
> be applied to a broad range of applications. A programming language is 
> designed to be human readable and writeable, it gets translated into the 
> ones and naughts of machine code by a compiler. Perl is what's known as 
> a high level language, meaning it's far away from coding in ones and 
> naughts.
> 
> 
> Why is Perl a good first language?
> 
> Perl borrows syntax and ways of doing things from older, lower level 
> languages such as C, C++, Pascal and LISP. It has also greatly 
> influenced newer languages such as PHP, Python, Ruby and JavaScript. 
> This makes Perl an excellent entrance point into programming. Learning 
> Perl makes it much easier to learn other languages in the future. 
> Although many people find Perl is the only programming language they need.
> 
> 
> Some Perl examples
> 
> The popular network game Frozen Bubble is made in Perl.
> http://www.frozen-bubble.org/
> 
> The most popular spam filtering software for internet servers is coded 
> in Perl.
> http://spamassassin.apache.org/
> 
> The webs most popular film and movie site is powered by Perl
> http://www.imdb.com/
> 
> 
> Jobs as programmers
> 
> Programming isn't easy, it requires a lot of practice and skill. 
> Employers seeking software developers most often test a programmers 
> ability to write code and solve problems. Practical skills and 
> experience are commonly valued more than computing qualifications. For 
> many programming languages, such as Perl, there is no official 
> certification.
> 
> 
> What does the course provide?
> 
> The course teaches the basics of computer programming. How to create 
> small programs in Perl that read input from the user and save things to 
> disk. Most importantly, the course aims to show students how they can 
> teach themselves further programming skills.
> 
> 
> How much do courses like this usually cost?
> 
> Typical beginning Perl programming courses are 5 days long at a cost of 
> around ?2,000 per student. A google for "Perl programming course" brings 
> up examples.
> 
> 
> Why is this course offered for free?
> 
> Perl itself is open source and free to download. It's not a commercial 
> product like Microsoft Windows. The local Perl moungers group wants to 
> promote Perl as a programming language and bring new blood to the 
> language. After all the beginners of today are the gurus of tomorrow. 
> The course is only available to teenagers (ages 13 to 19). Considering 
> the usually high cost of attending such a course, we hope this kind of 
> scheme will be picked up all around the country. Giving students of all 
> financial backgrounds the chance to catch the programming bug.
> 
> 
> Who are Perl Moungers?
> 
> Perl moungers are social groups of Perl programmers. The local group is 
> Bristol and Bath Perl Moungers ran by Lyle Hopkins. They hold regular 
> meetings with conversations orientated around programming in general. 
> Their web site can be found at http://perl.bristolbath.org
> 
> 
> Who is Lyle?
> 
> Lyle is a self employed computer programmer, who has been developing 
> Perl based internet applications for 10 years. He is the current 
> Managing Director of Cosmic Networks Ltd, a software development 
> company. He has a current enhanced disclosure CRB check.
> 
> 
> 
> Lyle
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
> 
> 
> This incoming email to UWE has been independently scanned for viruses by McAfee anti-virus software and none were detected



This email was independently scanned for viruses by McAfee anti-virus software and none were found