From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Tue Feb  3 23:13:30 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 23:13:30 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Who's going to YAPC?
Message-ID: <4988CF9A.80100@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  I plan on going to my first YAPC this year. Anyone else thinking of 
going? So far we don't have anyone from the group:-
http://yapceurope2009.org/ye2009/stats

If you are under 25 and haven't been to a YAPC before then you could 
even be paid to go!:-
http://www.send-a-newbie.com/apply

For the rest of us there seem to be some great deals if you book ahead:-
Flight + hotel deals for under ?500 for a week, or under ?300 for Sunday 
to Thursday. Plus from what I recall in Portugal things were pretty 
cheap (although last time I was there I was 12, lol).


Lyle


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Wed Feb  4 04:08:40 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 04:08:40 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] TECH meet!
Message-ID: <498914C8.6010207@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  It's time!
  We need to do a proper tech meet!
  As good as the flash talks at pub crowded meets have been (and they 
have been very good), we need do start some proper TECH meets.

Recently I've been working a lot with CGI::Application, so finally I 
have things to talk about that aren't specific to my situation.
I know Peter has a wealth of experience and things he could talk about.
I know Nige could talk about all sorts of things to do with creating a 
Perl based web service.
I know Alex could get us up to speed with working in an international 
telecommuting environment.
I know Amias could talk about ACME::*, Catalyst or other modules
I know Max could talk about SHA1 or MD5
I know MJ could talk about why open source if the only way and anything 
else is blasphemy :)
I know Rob could talk about Parrot and the myriad of things associated 
with that.
  Plus if we are lucky
I know David could talk about closures or any number of things
I know Paul could talk about google things (-python if we are lucky :)
I know Barbie might fulfil his original promise when this group was 
restarted to help start tech meets ;)

  Also there are a lot of other people on this list that could 
contribute, the above list only mentions those that have posted the 
most. If only half of (us|them) put together a short talk we'd still 
have a very good TECH meet :)

  No push for a near date, but at least within the next 4 months.

Let's make this happen :)


Lyle


From mjr at phonecoop.coop  Wed Feb  4 09:18:47 2009
From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 09:18:47 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] TECH meet!
In-Reply-To: <498914C8.6010207@cosmicperl.com>
References: <498914C8.6010207@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <49895d77.9SGvRU5r9UMrLfd2%mjr@phonecoop.coop>

Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote: [...]
> I know MJ could talk about why open source if the only way and anything 
> else is blasphemy :)

No, open source is a mistake, as I've been pointing out for years.
http://mjr.towers.org.uk/writing/ambigopen.html
Proprietary software isn't blasphemy (well, not to me, but I've worked
for monks), but it is self-defeating to get involved with it.

More interestingly (probably), I could talk about the XML/XSL perl
stuff I use or some of the problems of connecting older protocols like
Z39.50 and OAI-PMH up to the modern XML and HTTP world, to see if the
gurus have new takes on them.  Maybe later.

But I'm quite happy to hear about the works of others, too,
-- 
MJ Ray (slef)
Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small
worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/
(Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237

From something at amias.org.uk  Wed Feb  4 14:29:26 2009
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 14:29:26 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] TECH meet!
In-Reply-To: <498914C8.6010207@cosmicperl.com>
References: <498914C8.6010207@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <1233757766.7824.4.camel@localhost>

On Wed, 2009-02-04 at 04:08 +0000, Lyle wrote:
> 
> Let's make this happen :)

I can offer fairly plush office space with lovely views at Hamilton
House to host this , i reckon we can fit upto about 100 people .

I will have a think about talks to do , maybe something about catalyst
or xapian.

choose a date soon to avoid disappointment.

Toodle-pip
Amias


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Wed Feb  4 17:19:45 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 17:19:45 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] TECH meet!
In-Reply-To: <1233757766.7824.4.camel@localhost>
References: <498914C8.6010207@cosmicperl.com>
	<1233757766.7824.4.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <4989CE31.7070504@cosmicperl.com>

Amias Channer wrote:
> i reckon we can fit upto about 100 people .
>   

... I was thinking something a bit more informal and smaller O:-)
After all it's our first one.

> I will have a think about talks to do , maybe something about catalyst
> or xapian.
>
> choose a date soon to avoid disappointment.
>   

Am I correct in assuming there would be no charge for using your office 
space? :-)


Lyle


From something at amias.org.uk  Wed Feb  4 17:29:18 2009
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 17:29:18 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] TECH meet!
In-Reply-To: <4989CE31.7070504@cosmicperl.com>
References: <498914C8.6010207@cosmicperl.com>
	<1233757766.7824.4.camel@localhost> <4989CE31.7070504@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <1233768558.7824.16.camel@localhost>

On Wed, 2009-02-04 at 17:19 +0000, Lyle wrote:
> Amias Channer wrote:
> > i reckon we can fit upto about 100 people .
> >   
> 
> ... I was thinking something a bit more informal and smaller O:-)
> After all it's our first one.

we have had meetings of 3 people and meetings of 50 in the same 
place and its fine for both. 

> > I will have a think about talks to do , maybe something about catalyst
> > or xapian.
> >
> > choose a date soon to avoid disappointment.
> >   
> 
> Am I correct in assuming there would be no charge for using your office 
> space? :-)

If its at the weekend then yes it would be free , would be nice to
collect some donations for heating , lighting and network provision
as we are CIC and need to cover our expenses to keep the space
available.

Toodle-pip
Amias


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Wed Feb  4 17:39:58 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 17:39:58 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] TECH meet!
In-Reply-To: <1233768558.7824.16.camel@localhost>
References: <498914C8.6010207@cosmicperl.com>	<1233757766.7824.4.camel@localhost>
	<4989CE31.7070504@cosmicperl.com>
	<1233768558.7824.16.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <4989D2EE.7080901@cosmicperl.com>

Amias Channer wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-02-04 at 17:19 +0000, Lyle wrote:
>   
>> Amias Channer wrote:
>>     
>>> i reckon we can fit upto about 100 people .
>>>   
>>>       
>> ... I was thinking something a bit more informal and smaller O:-)
>> After all it's our first one.
>>     
>
> we have had meetings of 3 people and meetings of 50 in the same 
> place and its fine for both. 
>
>   
>>> I will have a think about talks to do , maybe something about catalyst
>>> or xapian.
>>>
>>> choose a date soon to avoid disappointment.
>>>   
>>>       
>> Am I correct in assuming there would be no charge for using your office 
>> space? :-)
>>     
>
> If its at the weekend then yes it would be free , would be nice to
> collect some donations for heating , lighting and network provision
> as we are CIC and need to cover our expenses to keep the space
> available.
>   

What kind of donations did you have in mind? If you give me a figure 
I'll try and work something so everyone is happy :)


Lyle


From something at amias.org.uk  Thu Feb  5 11:39:26 2009
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 11:39:26 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] TECH meet!
In-Reply-To: <4989D2EE.7080901@cosmicperl.com>
References: <498914C8.6010207@cosmicperl.com>
	<1233757766.7824.4.camel@localhost> <4989CE31.7070504@cosmicperl.com>
	<1233768558.7824.16.camel@localhost> <4989D2EE.7080901@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <1233833966.7907.2.camel@localhost>

On Wed, 2009-02-04 at 17:39 +0000, Lyle wrote:

> >
> > If its at the weekend then yes it would be free , would be nice to
> > collect some donations for heating , lighting and network provision
> > as we are CIC and need to cover our expenses to keep the space
> > available.
> >   
> 
> What kind of donations did you have in mind? If you give me a figure 
> I'll try and work something so everyone is happy :)

I will get those figures today as i will be heading down there later 
today.

Toodle-pip
Amias


From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Thu Feb  5 17:19:02 2009
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Thu,  5 Feb 2009 17:19:02 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Next meeting (was Re:  Site update -"Pick a colour,
 any colour")
References: <49838D0F.6040001@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20090203103852.28396.9633@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20090205171902.5984.9648@edison.ioppublishing.com>

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From nigel at turbo10.com  Thu Feb  5 18:26:41 2009
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 18:26:41 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Next meeting (was Re: Site update -"Pick a
	colour, any colour")
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20090205171902.5984.9648@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <49838D0F.6040001@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20090203103852.28396.9633@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<PGM.20090205171902.5984.9648@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <50fec4060902051026k28114dao70dfc3320fabc351@mail.gmail.com>

HI Peter,

> On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 23:28:15 +0000, Lyle wrote:
> > Choose your own colour, and if you get bored spin the onion! ;)
>
> The onion made me laugh.
>

Me too. A spinning logo - now all we need is a "drop shadow" - and Lyle's
dreams of world domination will be complete. ;-)


>
> > Let me know by private email who wants a login to do edits.
>
> Done. I'm looking forward to being able to fix the typos in my LPW
> review, as well as sort out the naught automatic wiki links which have
> now crept in.
>
> More importantly, we should all now have the power to edit the meeting
> page, but we don't have a venue yet. Are there any suggestions from
> the Bathonians?
>

Sorry for going quiet but I've been sucked into a massive Moosification
vortex and I'm hoping to come out the other side sometime soon! ;-)

I like the Raven - but it was a little too cozy. What do others think? Maybe
we should go back there one more time before the group gets too big?

I'm looking forward to hearing the talks at the tech meet. Hamilton House
sounds good to me. Put me down for a talk on "productive perl".


Nige
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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Thu Feb  5 19:17:00 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 19:17:00 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Next meeting (was Re: Site update -"Pick a
 colour, any colour")
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20090205171902.5984.9648@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <49838D0F.6040001@cosmicperl.com>	<PGM.20090203103852.28396.9633@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<PGM.20090205171902.5984.9648@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <498B3B2C.1090601@cosmicperl.com>

Peter Haworth wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 23:28:15 +0000, Lyle wrote:
>   
>> Let me know by private email who wants a login to do edits.
>>     
>
> Done. I'm looking forward to being able to fix the typos in my LPW
> review, as well as sort out the naught automatic wiki links which have
> now crept in.
>   

Got this sorted. By default Kwiki has a single user, I've got it running 
off a groupfile now. Also I've created the backup script and have it on 
a cron job every Monday morning.

As it happens kwiki.org has popped up again so we may well be upgrading 
to v2 in due course. I just emailed the Kwiki mailing list and Ingy 
suggested he is going to LPM tonight?


Lyle


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Thu Feb  5 19:31:10 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 19:31:10 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Next meeting (was Re: Site update -"Pick
 a	colour, any colour")
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060902051026k28114dao70dfc3320fabc351@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49838D0F.6040001@cosmicperl.com>	<PGM.20090203103852.28396.9633@edison.ioppublishing.com>	<PGM.20090205171902.5984.9648@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<50fec4060902051026k28114dao70dfc3320fabc351@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <498B3E7E.2040106@cosmicperl.com>

Nigel Hamilton wrote:
> HI Peter,
>
>     On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 23:28:15 +0000, Lyle wrote:
>     > Choose your own colour, and if you get bored spin the onion! ;)
>
>     The onion made me laugh.
>
>
> Me too. A spinning logo - now all we need is a "drop shadow" - and 
> Lyle's dreams of world domination will be complete. ;-)

HAHAHA! It is all mine, MINE I tell you! >:o

>     More importantly, we should all now have the power to edit the meeting
>     page, but we don't have a venue yet. Are there any suggestions from
>     the Bathonians?
>
>  
> Sorry for going quiet but I've been sucked into a massive 
> Moosification vortex and I'm hoping to come out the other side 
> sometime soon! ;-)
>
> I like the Raven - but it was a little too cozy. What do others think? 
> Maybe we should go back there one more time before the group gets too big?

I got the feeling it was only that busy due to Christmas. So a revisit 
may be well worth it. Also Peter likes the food as do I.

> I'm looking forward to hearing the talks at the tech meet. Hamilton 
> House sounds good to me. Put me down for a talk on "productive perl".

Brilliant :)

I missed toastmasters tonight, didn't like the idea of black ice on the 
roads. Hopefully a couple of visits will be enough for the tech meet :-\


Lyle


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Feb  6 07:05:47 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 07:05:47 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Let's try some OT: What's your sci-fi top 10?
Message-ID: <498BE14B.60809@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  We never seem to do a lot of OT, or much at all for that matter...

Being programmers I'm sure most of us are into sci-fi, so what's your 
top sci-fi list?

For me (currently):-
1. Star Wars: Empire (perfect)
2. Firefly (funny and great, who'd believe mixing a western with the 
future would work)
3. Heroes (first series was great, still undecided about the last one)
4. Battle Star Galatica (old and new really, bit weird starbuck being a 
girl in the new one though)
5. Stargate SG1 (some a great, others are shoddy)
6. Quantum leap (me and my brother loved it growing up)
7. Babylon 5 (good as long as you can laugh at the early budget)
8. Farscape (lot's of potential, nicely different, but could have been 
better)
9. The outer limits (always an interesting twist)
10. Lexx (strangly watchable, often very rude and funny)
10. Buck rogers (mostly due to Wilma's outfits :)

I haven't included Red Dwarf, to me it's in a whole league of it's own 
and it's definitely top! I'd like to name a favourite series, but when I 
think about it they are all great in different ways.

Clearly never been into Star Trek, but I'm sure many would disagree :-P


Lyle


From gav at revford.co.uk  Fri Feb  6 11:39:25 2009
From: gav at revford.co.uk (gav)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 11:39:25 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Let's try some OT: What's your sci-fi top 10?
In-Reply-To: <498BE14B.60809@cosmicperl.com>
References: <498BE14B.60809@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <20090206113925.GA26953@bluemidget.local>

On Fri, Feb 06, 2009 at 07:05:47AM +0000, Lyle wrote:
> We never seem to do a lot of OT, or much at all for that matter...
> 
> Being programmers I'm sure most of us are into sci-fi, so what's your 
> top sci-fi list?


As I seem to have turned into a bit of a lurker here, which was never
my intent, I'll jump back in with this.  :)

With Red Dwarf placed above and beyond lists again, here goes:

 1. Doctor Who
 2. Galactica (new stuff)
 3. Babylon 5
 4. Firefly
 5. Bladerunner
 6. Stargate (I'll include the movie as well as the show)
 7. Alien/Aliens (the later movies were junk)
 8. Space Above and Beyond
 9. Galactica (the original)
10. The Terminator


With honourable mentions to Predator, The Matrix, Twelve Monkeys and
Star Trek, especially TNG/DS9.

-- 
Gav Ford
gav at revford.co.uk 
http://revford.co.uk 
I think we need to:  Attach the quasar condenser


From alex.francis at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 15:43:24 2009
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 15:43:24 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] internationalisation
Message-ID: <16afc9550902060743w22d786fdub7541c8129b1eb56@mail.gmail.com>

Quick survey - what do you use, if anything, for internationalisation
of apps written in Perl?

Have you ever come across problems like these:

http://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/html_chapter/gettext_10.html#Plural-forms
http://plone.org/support/forums/i18n#nabble-td229976

(where different values of numeric substitution values require
different plural forms in the resulting sentences)

Or anything else that's tricky to do with simple text strings, for that matter.

Interested to hear. Trying to decide if these tricky i18n problems are
worth trying to solve or not and if there are any Perl tools out there
for dealing with them.

Ta
Alex

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Feb  6 16:20:53 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 16:20:53 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] internationalisation
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550902060743w22d786fdub7541c8129b1eb56@mail.gmail.com>
References: <16afc9550902060743w22d786fdub7541c8129b1eb56@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <498C6365.7010401@cosmicperl.com>

Alex Francis wrote:
> Quick survey - what do you use, if anything, for internationalisation
> of apps written in Perl?
>   

Guess you haven't read my blog:-
http://perl.bristolbath.org/blog/lyle/2008/12/giving-cgiapplication-internationalization-i18n.html

Over Christmas I decided to create an I18N plugin for CGI::Application. 
Took a lot of reading up to get my head round things. Perl has Maketext, 
http://search.cpan.org/dist/Locale-Maketext/ which IS better than 
Gettext, but everyone else uses Gettext derivatives, so Audrey created 
http://search.cpan.org/dist/Locale-Maketext-Lexicon/ and then later, 
http://search.cpan.org/dist/Locale-Maketext-Simple/ which I think most 
people use. These proivde acess

I've been writing a guide:-
http://search.cpan.org/dist/CGI-Application-Plugin-I18N/lib/CGI/Application/Plugin/I18N/Guide.pod

Which links to all the resources you'll want to read up on, then goes on 
to show creating .po files. Unfortunately I haven't covered plurals yet 
in my guide, but some of the resources I link to do.


Lyle


From alex.francis at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 16:25:01 2009
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 16:25:01 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] internationalisation
In-Reply-To: <498C6365.7010401@cosmicperl.com>
References: <16afc9550902060743w22d786fdub7541c8129b1eb56@mail.gmail.com>
	<498C6365.7010401@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550902060825j7e6240b1v8fc10def2fa3d14@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
> Guess you haven't read my blog:-
> http://perl.bristolbath.org/blog/lyle/2008/12/giving-cgiapplication-internationalization-i18n.html
>

Oops :-) A useful coincidence!

Will have a read.

Alex

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Feb  6 16:36:04 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 16:36:04 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] internationalisation
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550902060825j7e6240b1v8fc10def2fa3d14@mail.gmail.com>
References: <16afc9550902060743w22d786fdub7541c8129b1eb56@mail.gmail.com>	<498C6365.7010401@cosmicperl.com>
	<16afc9550902060825j7e6240b1v8fc10def2fa3d14@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <498C66F4.7010509@cosmicperl.com>

Alex Francis wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
>   
>> Guess you haven't read my blog:-
>> http://perl.bristolbath.org/blog/lyle/2008/12/giving-cgiapplication-internationalization-i18n.html
>>
>>     
>
> Oops :-) A useful coincidence!
>
> Will have a read.
>   

I was going to mention bits in my thing at the tech meet.

By the way, what are you going to talk about (nudge, nudge)?


Lyle


From alex.francis at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 21:35:57 2009
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 21:35:57 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Talk topics (was Re:  internationalisation)
Message-ID: <16afc9550902071335t3f283138sd8ef5ec7037a160a@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
>
> By the way, what are you going to talk about (nudge, nudge)?
>
>
> Lyle

Er... When's the meetup? (How long do I have to get round to prepping?)

Some ideas - any votes?

* Perl unit testing patterns (non-exhaustive, some patterns that have
proved useful to me recently)
* What's wrong with Selenium and how could we fix it with Perl?
* Perl Unicode ouches

First one I could almost do right now. Others I'd need to do some work
to prep, but I want to learn more about them so that's fine.

Alex

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Sat Feb  7 22:10:28 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 22:10:28 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Talk topics (was Re:  internationalisation)
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550902071335t3f283138sd8ef5ec7037a160a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <16afc9550902071335t3f283138sd8ef5ec7037a160a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <498E06D4.8090301@cosmicperl.com>

Alex Francis wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
>   
>> By the way, what are you going to talk about (nudge, nudge)?
>>
>>
>> Lyle
>>     
>
> Er... When's the meetup? (How long do I have to get round to prepping?)
>
> Some ideas - any votes?
>
> * Perl unit testing patterns (non-exhaustive, some patterns that have
> proved useful to me recently)
> * What's wrong with Selenium and how could we fix it with Perl?
> * Perl Unicode ouches
>
> First one I could almost do right now. Others I'd need to do some work
> to prep, but I want to learn more about them so that's fine.
>   

For me the first and last one sound good :) I've still got to prep mine, 
as I think most the others do. No dates have been set yet, but we 
shouldn't leave it to long.


Lyle


From david at cantrell.org.uk  Mon Feb  9 12:45:26 2009
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 12:45:26 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Let's try some OT: What's your sci-fi top 10?
In-Reply-To: <498BE14B.60809@cosmicperl.com>
References: <498BE14B.60809@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <20090209124526.GE20421@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Fri, Feb 06, 2009 at 07:05:47AM +0000, Lyle wrote:

> Being programmers I'm sure most of us are into sci-fi, so what's your 
> top sci-fi list?
> 
> For me (currently):-
> 1. Star Wars: Empire (perfect)
> 2. Firefly (funny and great, who'd believe mixing a western with the 
> future would work)
> 3. Heroes (first series was great, still undecided about the last one)
> ...

but that's all just TV and film sci-fi! Let's have some books!

In no particular order, and considering that fantasy is just sci-fi
without the ray-guns, here are some that I've really enjoyed in the last
year or so ...

Earth Abides, by George Stewart
A Canticle for Leibowitz, by Walter Miller
Dogland, by Will Shetterly
Callahan's Cross-time Saloon, by Spider Robinson
Agent to the Stars, by John Scalzi
Hunter's Moon, by David Devereux
The Magician's Nephew, by C.S.Lewis
Blindsight, by Peter Watts

-- 
David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist

    You are so cynical.  And by "cynical", of course, I mean "correct".
         -- Kurt Starsinic

From alex.francis at gmail.com  Mon Feb  9 13:01:27 2009
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 13:01:27 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Let's try some OT: What's your sci-fi top 10?
In-Reply-To: <20090209124526.GE20421@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
References: <498BE14B.60809@cosmicperl.com>
	<20090209124526.GE20421@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
Message-ID: <16afc9550902090501l679aa2n902ca41de75af0ab@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 12:45 PM, David Cantrell <david at cantrell.org.uk> wrote:
> but that's all just TV and film sci-fi! Let's have some books!
>
> In no particular order, and considering that fantasy is just sci-fi
> without the ray-guns, here are some that I've really enjoyed in the last
> year or so ...
>
> Earth Abides, by George Stewart
> A Canticle for Leibowitz, by Walter Miller
> Dogland, by Will Shetterly
> Callahan's Cross-time Saloon, by Spider Robinson
> Agent to the Stars, by John Scalzi
> Hunter's Moon, by David Devereux
> The Magician's Nephew, by C.S.Lewis
> Blindsight, by Peter Watts
>
> --
> David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist
>

Ah! Now you're talking.

"A Canticle for Leibowitz" is in my to-read pile.

A couple of recent finds for me were:

Vurt, by Jeff Noon
Stamping Butterflies, by John Courtenay Grimwood

Some long-standing faves

Most of Iain M. Banks, particularly Excession
Neuromancer, by Wiliam Gibson, of course
The Cyberiad, by Stanislaw Lem - for quirkiness
Galapagos, by Kurt Vonnegut

Alex

From as2003 at live.co.uk  Mon Feb  9 20:10:59 2009
From: as2003 at live.co.uk (twice half its length a)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 20:10:59 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Jobs?
Message-ID: <BAY105-W40C9098E4C58E6EE3AB6C3EDBC0@phx.gbl>


Hi there,

I hope it's ok to post this here. Basically, I will be moving back to Bristol (from London) in a couple of months and I'm looking for a job in the Bristol (and Bath) region.

But, from my research so far, it seems that there are very few Perl jobs in Bristol and only a handful in Bath. (Which seems strange as Bristol has a population 5 times greater).

Does anyone have any suggestions that might help me in my search?

Many thanks,
AS.

_________________________________________________________________
Love Hotmail?? Check out the new services from Windows Live! 
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/132630768/direct/01/
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From Stewart.Smith at novate-it.co.uk  Mon Feb  9 20:12:42 2009
From: Stewart.Smith at novate-it.co.uk (Stewart Smith)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 20:12:42 -0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Jobs?
References: <BAY105-W40C9098E4C58E6EE3AB6C3EDBC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <63AE6FC0BC1C7B46967A53AFE50BC97A5B8692@NOVATE.NovateIT.local>



>>Does anyone have any suggestions that might help me in my search?

There are some good Perl roles available in both Bristol and Bath at present for people with the right level of experience. Contact me off list if you'd like a chat about you options. Yes, I do run a recruitment consultancy but am well placed to point you in the right direction.

Cheers

Stewart Smith 
Managing Consultant 

Novate IT Ltd 
Tel: +44 (0)117 930 1900 
Mob: +44 (0)7771 883597 
www.novate-it.co.uk 
'Straightforward Recruitment Solutions for the IT, Telecoms and New Media Industry' 

Novate IT Ltd - Disclaimer Email communications are not secure therefore Novate IT Ltd will not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. Any views or opinions presented in this email or any attachments are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Novate IT Ltd. The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and for the sole use of addressee. Further distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient you are not authorised to disclose, copy or retain this email, and should notify us immediately. Novate IT Ltd, 111 Victoria Street, Bristol, BS1 6AX. Registered in England and Wales 5274402

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From alex.francis at gmail.com  Mon Feb  9 20:46:13 2009
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 20:46:13 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Jobs?
In-Reply-To: <63AE6FC0BC1C7B46967A53AFE50BC97A5B8692@NOVATE.NovateIT.local>
References: <BAY105-W40C9098E4C58E6EE3AB6C3EDBC0@phx.gbl>
	<63AE6FC0BC1C7B46967A53AFE50BC97A5B8692@NOVATE.NovateIT.local>
Message-ID: <16afc9550902091246r6887e457lb045b5c079c6ea0b@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Stewart Smith
<Stewart.Smith at novate-it.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>>Does anyone have any suggestions that might help me in my search?
>
> There are some good Perl roles available in both Bristol and Bath at present for people with the right level of experience. Contact me off list if you'd like a chat about you options. Yes, I do run a recruitment consultancy but am well placed to point you in the right direction.
>
> Cheers
>
> Stewart Smith

In case it helps, in my opinion Stewart's definitely worth talking to.
I have no affiliation to Novate, but I've worked with Stewart a few
times in the past, both as a manager looking for staff and as a
candidate. Unlike most rec. agents he actually has a decent knowledge
of the industry and is realistic, genuine, patient and polite. In
fact, if you read through Nameless' description of where agencies go
wrong - http://www.nameless.co.uk/contact/recruitment/to_recruitment_agencies
- you'll get an idea of what Stewart gets right :-)

Unfortunately for Stewart, my current employer doesn't generally use
agencies, so you might want to have a look at
http://jobs.perl.org/job/10032 if you haven't already :-)

Something occasionally also turns up on http://jobs.joelonsoftware.com
but there's nothing there at the mo that I can see.

Alex


From something at amias.org.uk  Mon Feb  9 20:53:21 2009
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 20:53:21 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Jobs?
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-W40C9098E4C58E6EE3AB6C3EDBC0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-W40C9098E4C58E6EE3AB6C3EDBC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1234212801.8427.8.camel@localhost>

On Mon, 2009-02-09 at 20:10 +0000, twice half its length a wrote:
> Hi there,
> 
> I hope it's ok to post this here. Basically, I will be moving back to
> Bristol (from London) in a couple of months and I'm looking for a job
> in the Bristol (and Bath) region.
> 
good luck .

> But, from my research so far, it seems that there are very few Perl
> jobs in Bristol and only a handful in Bath. (Which seems strange as
> Bristol has a population 5 times greater).
> 
Perl recruitment has always been a strange business and companies using
it seem to be strangely quiet about their involvement.

> Does anyone have any suggestions that might help me in my search?
> 
I know future publishing are looking for a Perl dev at the moment , 
i think this will be working with their Perl based publishing system
in the one of many bath offices

My dealings with future publishing in the past have lead me to be
unable to say positive things about them and especially the CEO .

It seems however one of the primary problems , low wages , has been
addressed in that i was offered 35k for that job.

email me offlist for less a cryptic details.

Toodle-pip
Amias


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Tue Feb 10 00:12:33 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 00:12:33 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] GPL free legals?
Message-ID: <4990C671.6040604@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  I'm sure at some point I (came across)|(read about) an organization 
that offers free legal support to open source projects?

I've come across an open source project that has had it's name ripped 
off, and all sorts of slanderous comments from an ex developer.


Lyle


From dave at dave.org.uk  Tue Feb 10 07:47:33 2009
From: dave at dave.org.uk (Dave Cross)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 07:47:33 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Let's try some OT: What's your sci-fi top 10?
In-Reply-To: <498BE14B.60809@cosmicperl.com>
References: <498BE14B.60809@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <49913115.7070701@dave.org.uk>

Lyle wrote:
> Hi All,
>   We never seem to do a lot of OT, or much at all for that matter...
> 
> Being programmers I'm sure most of us are into sci-fi, so what's your 
> top sci-fi list?

Let's break it down by medium.

Books:

* Stranger in a Strange Land (Robert Heinlein)
* The Man in the High Castle (Philip K Dick)
* The War of the Worlds (HG Wells)
* Dune (Frank Herbert)
* 1984 (George Orwell)

Film:

* Blade Runner
* Alien
* Silent Running
* Logan's Run
* Planet of the Apes (the original, obviously)

TV:

* Doctor Who
* Survivors (the original, obviously)
* UFO
* Quatermass
* The X Files

I've probably missed something obvious (and, no, I haven't forgotten
Star Wars, Star Trek, Red Dwarf or Firefly - they're all good[1], but
not good enough for these lists) and my lists will almost certainly have
changed if you ask me again tomorrow.

Dave...

[1] Well, with the obvious exception of Red Dwarf. That might just
scrape onto a top 50 list.

From david at cantrell.org.uk  Tue Feb 10 11:41:54 2009
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 11:41:54 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] internationalisation
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550902060743w22d786fdub7541c8129b1eb56@mail.gmail.com>
References: <16afc9550902060743w22d786fdub7541c8129b1eb56@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090210114154.GA10558@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Fri, Feb 06, 2009 at 03:43:24PM +0000, Alex Francis wrote:

> Quick survey - what do you use, if anything, for internationalisation
> of apps written in Perl?

We use a home-grown hack, despite only ever having written code that
talks to its users in English.  We use Template Toolkit for all our
output, and make use of it being configurable what the [% magic %]
characters are.  So all our templates go through two stages.

The [* first stage *] is when we install an app.  That takes an input
file like templates/RAW/blah.tt2 and substitutes things like [* patient *] 
with 'patient' and writes templates/en/blah.tt2, using a phrase file to
figure out what to substitute with what.  By our just writing a new phrase
file, it would also Do The Right Thing and spit out, eg,
templates/fr/blah.tt2.  Those files still have [% TT markup %] in them
so that we can substitute, eg, a number in the right place on the fly.

This is a poor solution, somewhat mitigated by playing tricks with the
TT path so that we can override the auto-generated translations.

> Have you ever come across problems like ...
> (where different values of numeric substitution values require
> different plural forms in the resulting sentences)

Certainly - eg in Arabic you have different forms for singular, dual
(two of something) and plural (more than two of something).  IMO,
internationalising interface elements (eg the name of the File menu,
the name of the Open option in it) is fine, internationalising *text*
is best done by a human translator, because even languages as closely
related as English and German can't just be translated by translating
a clause at a time and sticking 'em together, and god forbid that you
try doing that with English and Arabic!  If you do, you'll look
incompetent and illiterate.

And never mind that for some languages you'll need different page
layouts.  The obvious examples being that right-to-left and
left-to-right languages need *some* things mirrored.  A less obvious
example is that icons only make sense in a cultural context.  Back in
the early nineties when the interwebs were just getting started, lots of
people used Pegasus Mail.  Some people in this country found the
interface confusing, because it used an icon on a US-style mailbox on
top of a post for a GUI button.  That has no meaning here, and so some
people didn't think to click it to get their mail.  And going the other
way, a UK-written mail app used a picture of a red pillar box, thus
confusing USian users.

-- 
David Cantrell | Minister for Arbitrary Justice

Just because it is possible to do this sort of thing
in the English language doesn't mean it should be done

From something at amias.org.uk  Tue Feb 10 13:21:37 2009
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:21:37 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] GPL free legals?
In-Reply-To: <4990C671.6040604@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4990C671.6040604@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <1234272097.7481.16.camel@localhost>

On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 00:12 +0000, Lyle wrote:
> Hi All,
>   I'm sure at some point I (came across)|(read about) an organization 
> that offers free legal support to open source projects?

http://www.fsfeurope.org/ or maybe post it to the ORG mailing list for
advice , lots of open source aware legal types hang out there.


> I've come across an open source project that has had it's name ripped 
> off, and all sorts of slanderous comments from an ex developer.

I think that might be a dispute for the ex-developer and current
lead developer. You could always fork the code away from the
ex-developer and use a new name , i've seen this happen a few times
and whilst its annoying at first people will support the move if you
are open handed about it and the code is good.

Toodle-pip
Amias


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Tue Feb 10 15:14:16 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:14:16 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Code Contest
Message-ID: <499199C8.6070401@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  Here is the next coding contest.

Objective:-
Fixing the CPAN module "mouse" so that is has a work around on Perl 5.6 
to fix it's claimed 5.6 compatibility.

Background:-
Mouse is basically a Pure Perl implementation of Moose, 'without the 
antlers'. It gives people (like me) who need to have a Pure Perl (or 
optional Pure Perl) dependency chain, the chance to use Moose style objects.

There is however an issue running Mouse on Perl 5.6, highlighted by 
these cpan testers reports:-
http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.cpan.testers/2009/01/msg3109969.html
http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.cpan.testers/2009/01/msg2988774.html
http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.cpan.testers/2009/01/msg2998752.html
http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.cpan.testers/2008/12/msg2954909.html
http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.cpan.testers/2008/12/msg2936759.html
http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.cpan.testers/2008/12/msg2926861.html
http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.cpan.testers/2008/12/msg2898914.html

Back in November last year I submitted this as a BUG:-
http://rt.cpan.org/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=40666
Still no resolution, so hopefully someone here will figure it out :)

Discussion:-
I think it'd be really interesting to find out what changed between 5.6 
and 5.8 to cause this, also discussion of a work around could prove very 
enlightening.

Prize:-
I like prizes, so you get an engraved "B&B Perl Moungers" glass with a 
nice engraved onion on it as well. (one of the practice glasses from 
doing the awards).
Also the patch itself will be a real benefit to CPAN and Mouse.

Requirements:-
Installing a copy of Perl 5.6. Be careful not to overwrite the one you 
are currently using!

With a bit of hunting around, you can still get ActivePerl 5.6 for those 
of us on Win
http://downloads.activestate.com/ActivePerl/Windows/5.6/ActivePerl-5.6.1.638-MSWin32-x86.msi

For those on Linux, I'm guessing you'll probably have to build from source
http://www.cpan.org/src/perl-5.6.2.tar.gz

Unless you find suitable binaries, in which case please share ;)


Lyle


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Tue Feb 10 19:09:15 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:09:15 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Code Contest
In-Reply-To: <499199C8.6070401@cosmicperl.com>
References: <499199C8.6070401@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <4991D0DB.6050700@cosmicperl.com>

Just to let everyone know I emailed Shawn M Moore (the author of Mouse) 
about this contest and he has joined this list in order to answer any 
questions you may have.

Welcome Shawn :)


Lyle


From nigel at turbo10.com  Tue Feb 10 20:43:06 2009
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:43:06 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Bristol&Bath.pm Social Meeting - The
	Raven, Bath - 7pm Tue 	17th Feb
Message-ID: <50fec4060902101243w33b5aad7re0dad28f84f3cd3d@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

      It's time to have another meeting of the Bristol and Bath Perl Mongers
group [1] in Bath. There will be lightning talks (optional), good
conversation, beer and pies! What more could a Perl monger want? Everyone is
welcome and you don't even need to know anything about Perl.

     * When*

7pm, Tue 17th of February

      *Where*

The Raven Pub [2]
Queen St
Bath

The pub is a little tricky to find but if you print out this map[3] - you
should be fine.

See you there,


Nige


[1]   http://perl.bristolbath.org
[2]   http://www.theravenofbath.co.uk
[3]   http://www.theravenofbath.co.uk/how_to_find_us.html

p.s. please forward on to any forums you think are appropriate
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From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Wed Feb 11 09:29:50 2009
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 09:29:50 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ANNOUNCE: Bristol&Bath.pm Social Meeting - The
 Raven, Bath - 7pm Tue 17th Feb
References: <50fec4060902101243w33b5aad7re0dad28f84f3cd3d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20090211092950.23273.9661@edison.ioppublishing.com>

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From david at cantrell.org.uk  Wed Feb 11 11:46:31 2009
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:46:31 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Let's try some OT: What's your sci-fi top 10?
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550902090501l679aa2n902ca41de75af0ab@mail.gmail.com>
References: <498BE14B.60809@cosmicperl.com>
	<20090209124526.GE20421@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<16afc9550902090501l679aa2n902ca41de75af0ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090211114631.GC30668@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Mon, Feb 09, 2009 at 01:01:27PM +0000, Alex Francis wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 12:45 PM, David Cantrell <david at cantrell.org.uk> wrote:
> > In no particular order, and considering that fantasy is just sci-fi
> > without the ray-guns, here are some that I've really enjoyed in the last
> > year or so ...
> Ah! Now you're talking.
> "A Canticle for Leibowitz" is in my to-read pile.

Then move it to the top of the pile, toot sweet!

> Most of Iain M. Banks, particularly Excession

Heh, Excession is the only one of his "M" books that I *didn't* like :-)

> Neuromancer, by Wiliam Gibson, of course

Couldn't stand it, or any of his other stuff, or most Neal Stephenson.

> The Cyberiad, by Stanislaw Lem - for quirkiness

I found it very enjoyable, but it didn't keep dragging me back for more.
It travelled around in my coat pocket for ages, but I would quite
frequently IRC on the bus instead of reading, whereas with some other
books I'd be far more likely to read than IRC.

> Galapagos, by Kurt Vonnegut

Never read any of his stuff, although there's a couple in my to-read
pile.  Where in the pile I'm not sure, as it's about a yard cubed.

-- 
David Cantrell | Reality Engineer, Ministry of Information

    Vegetarian: n: a person who, due to malnutrition caused by
      poor lifestyle choices, is eight times more likely to
      catch TB than a normal person

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Wed Feb 11 14:52:14 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:52:14 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Organizing a hackathon - best practice?
Message-ID: <4992E61E.5070703@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  From time to time, when looking in mailing list archives, I find 
announcements of hackathons. Generally they seem to include a time, date 
and an IRC channel.

Not having every been a part of one, I'm wondering exactly how these 
things work, and what the options are?

Do you all meet on IRC, decide what to do, then individually work on 
different parts?
Or is there some kind of remote desktop involved so you can see what 
each other are doing?
What about sharing code snippets? IRC and email would seem a pain for 
this, is there some kind of notice board you all post to?
Or is it better to all have ssh access to a particular machine?

Sorry for all the questions. Got a couple of hackathons I'd like to 
organise. One for our current code contest, another for an open source 
project I've joined.


Lyle


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Wed Feb 11 15:14:08 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 15:14:08 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Jobs?
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550902091246r6887e457lb045b5c079c6ea0b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY105-W40C9098E4C58E6EE3AB6C3EDBC0@phx.gbl>	<63AE6FC0BC1C7B46967A53AFE50BC97A5B8692@NOVATE.NovateIT.local>
	<16afc9550902091246r6887e457lb045b5c079c6ea0b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4992EB40.4080407@cosmicperl.com>

Alex Francis wrote:
> Unfortunately for Stewart, my current employer doesn't generally use
> agencies, so you might want to have a look at
> http://jobs.perl.org/job/10032 if you haven't already :-)
>   

That mentions regular meets in Bristol. How many of you IMDB people are 
there in Bristol? How many on this list? I thought it was just you, so 
there are more I could hound to join  :-P Maybe you should take your 
award to one of those meets and taunt them with it :)


Lyle


From alex.francis at gmail.com  Wed Feb 11 16:08:10 2009
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:08:10 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Jobs?
In-Reply-To: <4992EB40.4080407@cosmicperl.com>
References: <BAY105-W40C9098E4C58E6EE3AB6C3EDBC0@phx.gbl>
	<63AE6FC0BC1C7B46967A53AFE50BC97A5B8692@NOVATE.NovateIT.local>
	<16afc9550902091246r6887e457lb045b5c079c6ea0b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4992EB40.4080407@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550902110808k533983del4449971a0400c5b5@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 3:14 PM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
>
> That mentions regular meets in Bristol. How many of you IMDB people are
> there in Bristol? How many on this list? I thought it was just you, so
> there are more I could hound to join  :-P Maybe you should take your
> award to one of those meets and taunt them with it :)
>
>
> Lyle
>

Er... some, they're aware of this group and some may come along one day :-)

Alex

From david at cantrell.org.uk  Wed Feb 11 16:36:13 2009
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:36:13 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Organizing a hackathon - best practice?
In-Reply-To: <4992E61E.5070703@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4992E61E.5070703@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <20090211163613.GB6986@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 02:52:14PM +0000, Lyle wrote:

> From time to time, when looking in mailing list archives, I find 
> announcements of hackathons. Generally they seem to include a time, date 
> and an IRC channel.

Or (and perhaps this is just a recent change) a date/time/place.  eg,
the QA Hackathon that's happening in Birmingham at the end of March.
That'll be the first one I've been to, and I'm looking forward to it.

The OpenGuides gang have occasional hackathons where they meet up
together as well.

Doing it together in the same room seems like it would be more
productive, as it's far easier to explain and show things in person.

-- 
David Cantrell | top google result for "topless karaoke murders"

  engineer: n. one who, regardless of how much effort he puts in
    to a job, will never satisfy either the suits or the scientists

From nigel at turbo10.com  Wed Feb 11 21:11:54 2009
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:11:54 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Organizing a hackathon - best practice?
In-Reply-To: <4992E61E.5070703@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4992E61E.5070703@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <50fec4060902111311j198618b1l93fe19422a539279@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Lyle,

     I haven't been to one either but I've heard that pizza is often a
prerequisite - I considered sponsoring pizza at a Perl6 hackathon at YAPC.

    Later in the year I'd like to host a hackathon after The Goo is
bootstrapped.

Nige
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From nigel at turbo10.com  Thu Feb 12 11:27:34 2009
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 11:27:34 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] XML::Simple - grabbing a deeply nested list?
Message-ID: <50fec4060902120327u1f6c90ebte0c2507caa2ea912@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

I'm using Perl's XML::Simple to parse deeply nested XML and would like to
extract a small list of elements about 4 levels down:

A
  B
    C
      D1
      D2
      D3

Ideally I want to do this:

my @list = XMLin($xml, { SomeAttribute => ButWhat? });

and then:

@list = ('D1', 'D2', 'D3')

Does anyone know how to make XML::Simple do this?

NIge

p.s. I'm using it on top of XML::SAX::ExpatXS
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From paulm at paulm.com  Thu Feb 12 11:54:26 2009
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 11:54:26 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] XML::Simple - grabbing a deeply nested list?
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060902120327u1f6c90ebte0c2507caa2ea912@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060902120327u1f6c90ebte0c2507caa2ea912@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0902120354l4a3fd974o5c1288672c9ecd2b@mail.gmail.com>

As an aside, XML::Simple is a bit more predictable if you initialise it with
some extras, some of which are suggested in the docs,
my $xs = XML::Simple->new(KeyAttr => [], NoAttr => 1, RootName => undef);

(Sorry I haven't actually used XMLin!)

P

On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Nigel Hamilton <nigel at turbo10.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I'm using Perl's XML::Simple to parse deeply nested XML and would like to
> extract a small list of elements about 4 levels down:
>
> A
>
>   B
>     C
>       D1
>       D2
>       D3
>
> Ideally I want to do this:
>
> my @list = XMLin($xml, { SomeAttribute => ButWhat? });
>
> and then:
>
> @list = ('D1', 'D2', 'D3')
>
> Does anyone know how to make XML::Simple do this?
>
> NIge
>
> p.s. I'm using it on top of XML::SAX::ExpatXS
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>
>
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From nigel at turbo10.com  Thu Feb 12 14:08:43 2009
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 14:08:43 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] XML::Simple - grabbing a deeply nested list?
In-Reply-To: <c37577dd0902120354l4a3fd974o5c1288672c9ecd2b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060902120327u1f6c90ebte0c2507caa2ea912@mail.gmail.com>
	<c37577dd0902120354l4a3fd974o5c1288672c9ecd2b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50fec4060902120608te822cc7gb2570d3e0cb17a51@mail.gmail.com>

HI Paul,

As an aside, XML::Simple is a bit more predictable if you initialise it with
> some extras, some of which are suggested in the docs,
>

Thanks for the suggestion.

It may not be possible to do what I'm asking for. In the end I decided to
do:

my @nested_list;

eval {

    @nested_list =
$xml_simple_tree->{just}->{try}->{it}->{and}->{eval}->{will}->{still}->{save}->{me};

};

Nige
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From nigel at turbo10.com  Mon Feb 16 10:40:45 2009
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:40:45 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] "The Raven" tomorrow night
Message-ID: <50fec4060902160240j574aa77bxa75b43751a6f6a82@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,
   Just a gentle reminder that the next social meeting is tomorrow night[1].
   Looking forward to it.

Nige

p.s. I'm going to bring along a little gadget that has increased my
programming productivity a lot, cost only $6.95 and doesn't need batteries.
;-)

[1] http://perl.bristolbath.org/?Meetings
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From nigel at turbo10.com  Mon Feb 16 11:54:28 2009
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:54:28 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Periodic Table of Perl6 Operators
Message-ID: <50fec4060902160354g3ea48debqc8b8b751f21b42a7@mail.gmail.com>

Beautiful [1]
1.
http://www.ozonehouse.com/mark/periodic/Periodic%20Table%20of%20the%20Operators%20A4%20300dpi.jpg
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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Mon Feb 16 12:26:15 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 12:26:15 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Periodic Table of Perl6 Operators
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060902160354g3ea48debqc8b8b751f21b42a7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060902160354g3ea48debqc8b8b751f21b42a7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49995B67.7080201@cosmicperl.com>

Nigel Hamilton wrote:
> Beautiful [1]
>
> 1. http://www.ozonehouse.com/mark/periodic/Periodic%20Table%20of%20the%20Operators%20A4%20300dpi.jpg

Excellent stuff! Now all I need is an A3 printer a paper worthy of such 
ink patterns.


Lyle


From paulm at paulm.com  Mon Feb 16 13:03:16 2009
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 13:03:16 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Periodic Table of Perl6 Operators
In-Reply-To: <49995B67.7080201@cosmicperl.com>
References: <50fec4060902160354g3ea48debqc8b8b751f21b42a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<49995B67.7080201@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0902160503j4a4c5a61i3755d74334a62edd@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:

> Nigel Hamilton wrote:
> > Beautiful [1]
> >
> > 1.
> http://www.ozonehouse.com/mark/periodic/Periodic%20Table%20of%20the%20Operators%20A4%20300dpi.jpg
>
> Excellent stuff! Now all I need is an A3 printer a paper worthy of such
> ink patterns.


Show some $$ appreciation by buying one of his prints,

http://www.ozonehouse.com/mark/periodic/prints.html (ships from England)

P


>
>
>
> Lyle
>
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>
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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Mon Feb 16 14:01:05 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 14:01:05 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] "The Raven" tomorrow night
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060902160240j574aa77bxa75b43751a6f6a82@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060902160240j574aa77bxa75b43751a6f6a82@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <499971A1.9020305@cosmicperl.com>

Nigel Hamilton wrote:
> Hi All,
>
>    Just a gentle reminder that the next social meeting is tomorrow 
> night[1].
>    Looking forward to it.

Thanks for the reminder. Just realized Laura is going to London today 
and isn't back till Thursday :/

I said I'd give Amias a lift as well (sorry I forgot she was going).

Anyone going from Bristol that I could bum a lift off? If not I'll 
drive, but it's nice to have a drink :)


Lyle


From Mark.OConnor at vodafone.com  Mon Feb 16 14:45:16 2009
From: Mark.OConnor at vodafone.com (O'Connor, Mark, VF UK)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 15:45:16 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] "The Raven" tomorrow night
In-Reply-To: <499971A1.9020305@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <D4C000EB37763C4D892F16FEEB210A345AD26E@VF-MBX19.internal.vodafone.com>

Hello,
I joined your group on the website because the production of Perl scripts
has become a requirement of my job. I am not an expert code cutter by any
stretch of the imagination but am keen to learn. I may be able to come the
meeting tomorrow if I do I may be able to offer a lift. I will know
tomorrow. I live in north Bristol Westbury-on-Trym.

Regards
Mark
____________________________________________________________________________
_________ 
This note is classified C1 - PUBLIC - information may circulate freely
inside and outside Vodafone 
Mark O'Connor 
Technology Security 

Service Operations   
Mobile: +44 (0) 7919 308692
E-mail: mark.oconnor at vodafone.com  
  
Vodafone UK Limited
Registered Office: Vodafone House, The Connection, Newbury, Berkshire RG14
2FN
Registered in England No 1471587 



  
-----Original Message-----
From: bristolbathpm-bounces at bristolbath.org
[mailto:bristolbathpm-bounces at bristolbath.org] On Behalf Of Lyle
Sent: 16 February 2009 14:01
To: Bristol and Bath Perl M[ou]ngers
Subject: Re: [BristolBathPM] "The Raven" tomorrow night

Nigel Hamilton wrote:
> Hi All,
>
>    Just a gentle reminder that the next social meeting is tomorrow 
> night[1].
>    Looking forward to it.

Thanks for the reminder. Just realized Laura is going to London today and
isn't back till Thursday :/

I said I'd give Amias a lift as well (sorry I forgot she was going).

Anyone going from Bristol that I could bum a lift off? If not I'll drive,
but it's nice to have a drink :)


Lyle

_______________________________________________
BristolBathPM mailing list
BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
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From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 15:11:46 2009
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 15:11:46 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Jobs?
In-Reply-To: <63AE6FC0BC1C7B46967A53AFE50BC97A5B8692@NOVATE.NovateIT.local>
References: <BAY105-W40C9098E4C58E6EE3AB6C3EDBC0@phx.gbl>
	<63AE6FC0BC1C7B46967A53AFE50BC97A5B8692@NOVATE.NovateIT.local>
Message-ID: <edcafa7d0902160711s3dc7eda5m6979715348270cfc@mail.gmail.com>

2009/2/9 Stewart Smith <Stewart.Smith at novate-it.co.uk>:
>>>Does anyone have any suggestions that might help me in my search?
>
> There are some good Perl roles available in both Bristol and Bath at present for people with the right level of experience.

I'd like to see some evidence of this beyond imdb's job ad.

Novate have been less than helpful, because apparently living in Bath
or Bristol during the week is less than their client's expect
(although that's the fourth different excuse I've had from the same
recruiter there).

A.

-- 
http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk
LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting

From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 15:15:04 2009
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 15:15:04 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Jobs?
In-Reply-To: <edcafa7d0902160711s3dc7eda5m6979715348270cfc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY105-W40C9098E4C58E6EE3AB6C3EDBC0@phx.gbl>
	<63AE6FC0BC1C7B46967A53AFE50BC97A5B8692@NOVATE.NovateIT.local>
	<edcafa7d0902160711s3dc7eda5m6979715348270cfc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <edcafa7d0902160715q9d487c7raa7b9fcd38e2ca4a@mail.gmail.com>

2009/2/16 Aaron Trevena <aaron.trevena at gmail.com>:
> 2009/2/9 Stewart Smith <Stewart.Smith at novate-it.co.uk>:
>>>>Does anyone have any suggestions that might help me in my search?
>>
>> There are some good Perl roles available in both Bristol and Bath at present for people with the right level of experience.
>
> I'd like to see some evidence of this beyond imdb's job ad.
>
> Novate have been less than helpful, because apparently living in Bath
> or Bristol during the week is less than their client's expect
> (although that's the fourth different excuse I've had from the same
> recruiter there).

A more informative and accurate ad than the one novate-it posted :
http://www.jobserve.com/W28D7ABEBC4687237.jsjob

Note the 15 grand difference.

A.

-- 
http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk
LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting

From andy at mentalist.co.uk  Mon Feb 16 15:20:27 2009
From: andy at mentalist.co.uk (Andy Gale)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 15:20:27 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Jobs?
In-Reply-To: <edcafa7d0902160711s3dc7eda5m6979715348270cfc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY105-W40C9098E4C58E6EE3AB6C3EDBC0@phx.gbl>
	<63AE6FC0BC1C7B46967A53AFE50BC97A5B8692@NOVATE.NovateIT.local>
	<edcafa7d0902160711s3dc7eda5m6979715348270cfc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a3639e6d0902160720y2d098427lca4a1d8dc3021eac@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Aaron Trevena <aaron.trevena at gmail.com> wrote:

> Novate have been less than helpful, because apparently living in Bath
> or Bristol during the week is less than their client's expect
> (although that's the fourth different excuse I've had from the same
> recruiter there).

What?

-- 
Andy Gale
W: www.andy-gale.com
T: http://twitter.com/andygale

From paulm at paulm.com  Mon Feb 16 15:39:29 2009
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 15:39:29 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Jobs?
In-Reply-To: <edcafa7d0902160711s3dc7eda5m6979715348270cfc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY105-W40C9098E4C58E6EE3AB6C3EDBC0@phx.gbl>
	<63AE6FC0BC1C7B46967A53AFE50BC97A5B8692@NOVATE.NovateIT.local>
	<edcafa7d0902160711s3dc7eda5m6979715348270cfc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0902160739q6ba443caj59c916196cbd12e0@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Aaron Trevena <aaron.trevena at gmail.com>wrote:

> 2009/2/9 Stewart Smith <Stewart.Smith at novate-it.co.uk>:
> >>>Does anyone have any suggestions that might help me in my search?
> >
> > There are some good Perl roles available in both Bristol and Bath at
> present for people with the right level of experience.
>
> I'd like to see some evidence of this beyond imdb's job ad.


If you are decent with Catalyst, can communicate effectively through email,
and enjoy working on medium-sized conceptually rich projects: one of the
companies I work for* is hiring remote folks. (Not Google, although they are
too, to a more limited extent these days.) Does that help?

P

* http://www.investor-dynamics.com/ - sponsors of the recent-ish London.pm
talk series.
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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Mon Feb 16 20:23:15 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 20:23:15 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Companies/Programmers for hire [Was: Jobs?]
Message-ID: <4999CB33.10706@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  Last time we updated the site I was contemplating adding a 
Companies/Programmers for hire page, as well as a page for Companies 
that use Perl.

Seems like now might be a good time to put it up? Thoughts on this?


Lyle


From psykx.out at googlemail.com  Mon Feb 16 22:18:11 2009
From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (Max)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 22:18:11 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Companies/Programmers for hire [Was: Jobs?]
In-Reply-To: <4999CB33.10706@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4999CB33.10706@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <4999E623.5060000@googlemail.com>

Lyle wrote:
> Hi All,
>   Last time we updated the site I was contemplating adding a 
> Companies/Programmers for hire page, as well as a page for Companies 
> that use Perl.
>
> Seems like now might be a good time to put it up? Thoughts on this?
>
>
> Lyle
>
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>   
I'd post something on programmers for hire.

Max

From nigel at turbo10.com  Mon Feb 16 23:02:57 2009
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:02:57 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Companies/Programmers for hire [Was: Jobs?]
In-Reply-To: <4999E623.5060000@googlemail.com>
References: <4999CB33.10706@cosmicperl.com> <4999E623.5060000@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <50fec4060902161502j702fbf5fvf2eae0dff90f1188@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,


> >
> I'd post something on programmers for hire.


Also there is also the people page[1] on the wiki if you haven't added
yourself yet please do.

Nige


[1] http://perl.bristolbath.org/?People
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From nigel at turbo10.com  Mon Feb 16 23:04:30 2009
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:04:30 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Companies/Programmers for hire [Was: Jobs?]
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060902161502j702fbf5fvf2eae0dff90f1188@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4999CB33.10706@cosmicperl.com> <4999E623.5060000@googlemail.com>
	<50fec4060902161502j702fbf5fvf2eae0dff90f1188@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50fec4060902161504x3c48c1f3w42218e585a24108c@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> >
>> I'd post something on programmers for hire.
>
>
> Also there is also the people page[1] on the wiki if you haven't added
> yourself yet please do.
>

I've also had too much to drink! ;-)

Nige
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From something at amias.org.uk  Tue Feb 17 11:46:09 2009
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 11:46:09 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Companies/Programmers for hire [Was: Jobs?]
In-Reply-To: <4999CB33.10706@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4999CB33.10706@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <1234871169.8817.1.camel@localhost>

On Mon, 2009-02-16 at 20:23 +0000, Lyle wrote:
> Hi All,
>   Last time we updated the site I was contemplating adding a 
> Companies/Programmers for hire page, as well as a page for Companies 
> that use Perl.
> 
> Seems like now might be a good time to put it up? Thoughts on this?

i would but: 

1. that wiki kills my browser which is the latest firefox on ubuntu
intrepid 64bit on a fast machine .

2. i dont have a login.

Toodle-pip
Amias


From paulm at paulm.com  Tue Feb 17 12:03:27 2009
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 12:03:27 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Companies/Programmers for hire [Was: Jobs?]
In-Reply-To: <1234871169.8817.1.camel@localhost>
References: <4999CB33.10706@cosmicperl.com> <1234871169.8817.1.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0902170403t732346ffv86aa97ca962a415a@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Amias Channer <something at amias.org.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-02-16 at 20:23 +0000, Lyle wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>   Last time we updated the site I was contemplating adding a
>> Companies/Programmers for hire page, as well as a page for Companies
>> that use Perl.
>>
>> Seems like now might be a good time to put it up? Thoughts on this?
>
> i would but:
>
> 1. that wiki kills my browser which is the latest firefox on ubuntu
> intrepid 64bit on a fast machine .
>
> 2. i dont have a login.

In fairness it's pretty much impossible to run a wiki these days
without a login, or a huge team of highly attentive spam removers.

P

>
> Toodle-pip
> Amias
>
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>

From something at amias.org.uk  Tue Feb 17 12:29:38 2009
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 12:29:38 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Companies/Programmers for hire [Was: Jobs?]
In-Reply-To: <c37577dd0902170403t732346ffv86aa97ca962a415a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4999CB33.10706@cosmicperl.com> <1234871169.8817.1.camel@localhost>
	<c37577dd0902170403t732346ffv86aa97ca962a415a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1234873778.8817.5.camel@localhost>

On Tue, 2009-02-17 at 12:03 +0000, Paul Makepeace wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Amias Channer <something at amias.org.uk> wrote:
> > On Mon, 2009-02-16 at 20:23 +0000, Lyle wrote:
> >> Hi All,
> >>   Last time we updated the site I was contemplating adding a
> >> Companies/Programmers for hire page, as well as a page for Companies
> >> that use Perl.
> >>
> >> Seems like now might be a good time to put it up? Thoughts on this?
> >
> > i would but:
> >
> > 1. that wiki kills my browser which is the latest firefox on ubuntu
> > intrepid 64bit on a fast machine .
> >
> > 2. i dont have a login.
> 
> In fairness it's pretty much impossible to run a wiki these days
> without a login, or a huge team of highly attentive spam removers.

indeed , i was commenting more on the fact that there doesn't seem
to be a way of acquiring a login mentioned on the site.

Toodle-pip
Amias


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Tue Feb 17 12:43:27 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 12:43:27 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Companies/Programmers for hire [Was: Jobs?]
In-Reply-To: <1234873778.8817.5.camel@localhost>
References: <4999CB33.10706@cosmicperl.com>
	<1234871169.8817.1.camel@localhost>	<c37577dd0902170403t732346ffv86aa97ca962a415a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1234873778.8817.5.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <499AB0EF.1090204@cosmicperl.com>

Amias Channer wrote:
> indeed , i was commenting more on the fact that there doesn't seem
> to be a way of acquiring a login mentioned on the site.
>   

[BristolBathPM] Site update -"Pick a colour, any colour"
Lyle wrote:
> Hi All,
>   Finally updated the site to a Wiki.
> ...
>
> Let me know by private email who wants a login to do edits. I think I'll 
> have to setup some kind of cron job doing a backup encase edits go wrong.
>   

The logins are .htaccess based and I'm having to set them up manually. 
Hopefully this'll be fixed when I get chance to upgrade Kwiki.


Lyle


From paulm at paulm.com  Tue Feb 17 12:57:24 2009
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 12:57:24 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Companies/Programmers for hire [Was: Jobs?]
In-Reply-To: <499AB0EF.1090204@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4999CB33.10706@cosmicperl.com> <1234871169.8817.1.camel@localhost>
	<c37577dd0902170403t732346ffv86aa97ca962a415a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1234873778.8817.5.camel@localhost> <499AB0EF.1090204@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0902170457q7c0fe726hf6a59934b86c5ef4@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
> Amias Channer wrote:
>> indeed , i was commenting more on the fact that there doesn't seem
>> to be a way of acquiring a login mentioned on the site.
>>
>
> [BristolBathPM] Site update -"Pick a colour, any colour"
> Lyle wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>   Finally updated the site to a Wiki.
>> ...
>>
>> Let me know by private email who wants a login to do edits. I think I'll
>> have to setup some kind of cron job doing a backup encase edits go wrong.
>>
>
> The logins are .htaccess based and I'm having to set them up manually.
> Hopefully this'll be fixed when I get chance to upgrade Kwiki.

MediaWiki FTW!

P

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Tue Feb 17 13:15:48 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 13:15:48 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Companies/Programmers for hire [Was: Jobs?]
In-Reply-To: <c37577dd0902170457q7c0fe726hf6a59934b86c5ef4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4999CB33.10706@cosmicperl.com>
	<1234871169.8817.1.camel@localhost>	<c37577dd0902170403t732346ffv86aa97ca962a415a@mail.gmail.com>	<1234873778.8817.5.camel@localhost>
	<499AB0EF.1090204@cosmicperl.com>
	<c37577dd0902170457q7c0fe726hf6a59934b86c5ef4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <499AB884.6080207@cosmicperl.com>

Paul Makepeace wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
>   
>> Amias Channer wrote:
>>     
>>> indeed , i was commenting more on the fact that there doesn't seem
>>> to be a way of acquiring a login mentioned on the site.
>>>
>>>       
>> [BristolBathPM] Site update -"Pick a colour, any colour"
>> Lyle wrote:
>>     
>>> Hi All,
>>>   Finally updated the site to a Wiki.
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Let me know by private email who wants a login to do edits. I think I'll
>>> have to setup some kind of cron job doing a backup encase edits go wrong.
>>>
>>>       
>> The logins are .htaccess based and I'm having to set them up manually.
>> Hopefully this'll be fixed when I get chance to upgrade Kwiki.
>>     
>
> MediaWiki FTW

I refuse to be one of those ghastly Perl sites that uses php :-P


Lyle

P.S. It's bad enough we are using the python mailman


From paulm at paulm.com  Tue Feb 17 13:29:17 2009
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 13:29:17 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Companies/Programmers for hire [Was: Jobs?]
In-Reply-To: <499AB884.6080207@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4999CB33.10706@cosmicperl.com> <1234871169.8817.1.camel@localhost>
	<c37577dd0902170403t732346ffv86aa97ca962a415a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1234873778.8817.5.camel@localhost> <499AB0EF.1090204@cosmicperl.com>
	<c37577dd0902170457q7c0fe726hf6a59934b86c5ef4@mail.gmail.com>
	<499AB884.6080207@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0902170529t90d65d5jd84999aed4a90e7e@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 1:15 PM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
> Paul Makepeace wrote:
>> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Amias Channer wrote:
>>>
>>>> indeed , i was commenting more on the fact that there doesn't seem
>>>> to be a way of acquiring a login mentioned on the site.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> [BristolBathPM] Site update -"Pick a colour, any colour"
>>> Lyle wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>   Finally updated the site to a Wiki.
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> Let me know by private email who wants a login to do edits. I think I'll
>>>> have to setup some kind of cron job doing a backup encase edits go wrong.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> The logins are .htaccess based and I'm having to set them up manually.
>>> Hopefully this'll be fixed when I get chance to upgrade Kwiki.
>>>
>>
>> MediaWiki FTW
>
> I refuse to be one of those ghastly Perl sites that uses php :-P
>
>
> Lyle
>
> P.S. It's bad enough we are using the python mailman

You are joking, right?

Seriously, use the best tool for the job... MediaWiki rules. Making
decisions on the underlying language is only really an issue if you
actually have to hack on the code, which presumably you don't.

P

From something at amias.org.uk  Tue Feb 17 13:39:38 2009
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 13:39:38 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Companies/Programmers for hire [Was: Jobs?]
In-Reply-To: <499AB884.6080207@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4999CB33.10706@cosmicperl.com> <1234871169.8817.1.camel@localhost>
	<c37577dd0902170403t732346ffv86aa97ca962a415a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1234873778.8817.5.camel@localhost> <499AB0EF.1090204@cosmicperl.com>
	<c37577dd0902170457q7c0fe726hf6a59934b86c5ef4@mail.gmail.com>
	<499AB884.6080207@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <1234877978.8817.19.camel@localhost>

On Tue, 2009-02-17 at 13:15 +0000, Lyle wrote:
> P.S. It's bad enough we are using the python mailman

there is always siesta..... ;-)
http://unixbeard.net/~richardc/cgi/blog.cgi/siesta.pod/

Toodle-pip
Amias



From something at amias.org.uk  Tue Feb 17 13:44:39 2009
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 13:44:39 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] "The Raven" tomorrow night
In-Reply-To: <499971A1.9020305@cosmicperl.com>
References: <50fec4060902160240j574aa77bxa75b43751a6f6a82@mail.gmail.com>
	<499971A1.9020305@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <1234878279.8817.24.camel@localhost>

On Mon, 2009-02-16 at 14:01 +0000, Lyle wrote:

> I said I'd give Amias a lift as well

sorry guys , the curse of tuesday night strikes again
seasoned by the vile sauce of an early meeting tommorrow.

I'm going to dorkbot at the pm lab in bristol instead so 
someone else will have to be the bad influence tonight.

The chosen replacement is welcome to contact me offlist 
for tips on drinking too much and talking shit .

Toodle-pip
Amias



From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Tue Feb 17 13:52:37 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 13:52:37 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Companies/Programmers for hire [Was: Jobs?]
In-Reply-To: <c37577dd0902170529t90d65d5jd84999aed4a90e7e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4999CB33.10706@cosmicperl.com>
	<1234871169.8817.1.camel@localhost>	<c37577dd0902170403t732346ffv86aa97ca962a415a@mail.gmail.com>	<1234873778.8817.5.camel@localhost>
	<499AB0EF.1090204@cosmicperl.com>	<c37577dd0902170457q7c0fe726hf6a59934b86c5ef4@mail.gmail.com>	<499AB884.6080207@cosmicperl.com>
	<c37577dd0902170529t90d65d5jd84999aed4a90e7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <499AC125.2080607@cosmicperl.com>

Paul Makepeace wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 1:15 PM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
>   
>> Paul Makepeace wrote:
>>     
>>> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Lyle <webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Amias Channer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> indeed , i was commenting more on the fact that there doesn't seem
>>>>> to be a way of acquiring a login mentioned on the site.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> [BristolBathPM] Site update -"Pick a colour, any colour"
>>>> Lyle wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>   Finally updated the site to a Wiki.
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me know by private email who wants a login to do edits. I think I'll
>>>>> have to setup some kind of cron job doing a backup encase edits go wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> The logins are .htaccess based and I'm having to set them up manually.
>>>> Hopefully this'll be fixed when I get chance to upgrade Kwiki.
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> MediaWiki FTW
>>>       
>> I refuse to be one of those ghastly Perl sites that uses php :-P
>>
>>
>> Lyle
>>
>> P.S. It's bad enough we are using the python mailman
>>     
>
> You are joking, right?
>   

half

> Seriously, use the best tool for the job...

I tend to try and use the best Perl tool for the job. Failing that the 
best tool in a different language. Although 'the best' is always a 
matter of opinion.

> Making
> decisions on the underlying language is only really an issue if you
> actually have to hack on the code, which presumably you don't.
>   

I do have a habit of getting involved more often than I'd like :-[      
I'm on the Kwiki mailing list and have been looking and contributing.

For this site something simple like Kwiki is a good enough tool for the 
job. Plus we've been working on a redesign for a site that uses Kwiki, 
so it made sense to get more accustomed to it at the time.

Amias Channer wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-02-17 at 13:15 +0000, Lyle wrote:
>   
>> P.S. It's bad enough we are using the python mailman
>>     
>
> there is always siesta..... ;-)

ahh, the LPM effort that never got finished. I don't understand why they 
didn't just upgrade MajorDomo


Lyle


From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 14:29:32 2009
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 14:29:32 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Companies/Programmers for hire [Was: Jobs?]
In-Reply-To: <c37577dd0902170529t90d65d5jd84999aed4a90e7e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4999CB33.10706@cosmicperl.com> <1234871169.8817.1.camel@localhost>
	<c37577dd0902170403t732346ffv86aa97ca962a415a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1234873778.8817.5.camel@localhost> <499AB0EF.1090204@cosmicperl.com>
	<c37577dd0902170457q7c0fe726hf6a59934b86c5ef4@mail.gmail.com>
	<499AB884.6080207@cosmicperl.com>
	<c37577dd0902170529t90d65d5jd84999aed4a90e7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <edcafa7d0902170629g2849df3aj534b180dd348627d@mail.gmail.com>

2009/2/17 Paul Makepeace <paulm at paulm.com>:
> You are joking, right?
>
> Seriously, use the best tool for the job... MediaWiki rules. Making
> decisions on the underlying language is only really an issue if you
> actually have to hack on the code, which presumably you don't.

Maybe it's just poorly configured but I've found mediawiki pretty
painful at one of my clients, the default search misses most results,
the hierarchy stuff doesn't work very well at all, and uploading and
linking to images is pretty painful.

For a simple site like bath.pm, I'd say it was massive overkill for
little gain. Kwiki is quick and simple, and has enough plugins to do
most of what you need.

A.

-- 
http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk
LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting

From david at cantrell.org.uk  Tue Feb 17 14:44:45 2009
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 14:44:45 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Companies/Programmers for hire [Was: Jobs?]
In-Reply-To: <499AB884.6080207@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4999CB33.10706@cosmicperl.com> <1234871169.8817.1.camel@localhost>
	<c37577dd0902170403t732346ffv86aa97ca962a415a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1234873778.8817.5.camel@localhost>
	<499AB0EF.1090204@cosmicperl.com>
	<c37577dd0902170457q7c0fe726hf6a59934b86c5ef4@mail.gmail.com>
	<499AB884.6080207@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <20090217144445.GG12438@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 01:15:48PM +0000, Lyle wrote:
> Paul Makepeace wrote:
> > MediaWiki FTW
> I refuse to be one of those ghastly Perl sites that uses php :-P
> P.S. It's bad enough we are using the python mailman

Hehe, I was going to post about how you don't have to do everything in
perl, and my other example apart from mediawiki would be mailman.
Really, both mediawiki and mailman are very good, and the effort
required to do better in perl would, in my opinion, be too much to make
it worthwhile.

-- 
David Cantrell | top google result for "topless karaoke murders"

What is the difference between hearing aliens through the
fillings in your teeth and hearing Jesus in your heart?

From psykx.out at googlemail.com  Tue Feb 17 15:08:47 2009
From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (max psykx)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:08:47 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] "The Raven" tomorrow night
In-Reply-To: <1234878279.8817.24.camel@localhost>
References: <50fec4060902160240j574aa77bxa75b43751a6f6a82@mail.gmail.com>
	<499971A1.9020305@cosmicperl.com> <1234878279.8817.24.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <d2cea6400902170708y68e2e5e8pde5153060fd6cc3f@mail.gmail.com>

Don't worry I'll be there to take your place and uphold the tradition
of drunkenness on behalf of the fine betherin of um... drunk...
perl.... monks...


Max

From david at cantrell.org.uk  Tue Feb 17 15:09:20 2009
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:09:20 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Companies/Programmers for hire [Was: Jobs?]
In-Reply-To: <499AC125.2080607@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4999CB33.10706@cosmicperl.com> <1234871169.8817.1.camel@localhost>
	<c37577dd0902170403t732346ffv86aa97ca962a415a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1234873778.8817.5.camel@localhost>
	<499AB0EF.1090204@cosmicperl.com>
	<c37577dd0902170457q7c0fe726hf6a59934b86c5ef4@mail.gmail.com>
	<499AB884.6080207@cosmicperl.com>
	<c37577dd0902170529t90d65d5jd84999aed4a90e7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<499AC125.2080607@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <20090217150920.GH12438@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 01:52:37PM +0000, Lyle wrote:
> Paul Makepeace wrote:
> > there is always siesta..... ;-)
> ahh, the LPM effort that never got finished. I don't understand why they 
> didn't just upgrade MajorDomo

Because the new! improved! version of majordomo wasn't ready then, and
*still* isn't ready now.  Wanna know how long we've been waiting for
majordomo2?  The website says:

   What do I need to run it?

   In theory, just Perl 5 and various modules, all available from CPAN.
   In practice, you really want a recent version of Perl 5, preferably
   5.005_03 or 5.6.1 ...

And the last CVS commit was in October 2007.  The last year that any
significant amount of work was done on it was 2004.

Siesta came about because some people said "wah! we're using a mailing
list manager written in python, which is evil!  If there was a mailing
list manager written in modern perl instead of the nasty perl 4 mess
that is majordomo, then I'd volunteer to hack on it to improve it".
So Richard wrote Siesta, to prove that those people were all mouth and
no trousers and would not, in fact, hack on it.  He was right.

-- 
David Cantrell | Official London Perl Mongers Bad Influence

Do not be afraid of cooking, as your ingredients will know and misbehave
   -- Fergus Henderson

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Tue Feb 17 15:49:27 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:49:27 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] "The Raven" tomorrow night
In-Reply-To: <D4C000EB37763C4D892F16FEEB210A345AD26E@VF-MBX19.internal.vodafone.com>
References: <D4C000EB37763C4D892F16FEEB210A345AD26E@VF-MBX19.internal.vodafone.com>
Message-ID: <499ADC87.3010305@cosmicperl.com>

O'Connor, Mark, VF UK wrote:
> Hello,
> I joined your group on the website because the production of Perl scripts
> has become a requirement of my job. I am not an expert code cutter by any
> stretch of the imagination but am keen to learn. I may be able to come the
> meeting tomorrow if I do I may be able to offer a lift. I will know
> tomorrow. I live in north Bristol Westbury-on-Trym.
>   

Any chance of that lift?


Lyle


From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Tue Feb 17 15:52:51 2009
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:52:51 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Companies/Programmers for hire [Was: Jobs?]
In-Reply-To: <20090217150920.GH12438@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
References: <4999CB33.10706@cosmicperl.com> <1234871169.8817.1.camel@localhost>
	<c37577dd0902170403t732346ffv86aa97ca962a415a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1234873778.8817.5.camel@localhost> <499AB0EF.1090204@cosmicperl.com>
	<c37577dd0902170457q7c0fe726hf6a59934b86c5ef4@mail.gmail.com>
	<499AB884.6080207@cosmicperl.com>
	<c37577dd0902170529t90d65d5jd84999aed4a90e7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<499AC125.2080607@cosmicperl.com>
	<20090217150920.GH12438@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
Message-ID: <edcafa7d0902170752r2c01128ak60337decd0d24785@mail.gmail.com>

2009/2/17 David Cantrell <david at cantrell.org.uk>:
> And the last CVS commit was in October 2007.  The last year that any
> significant amount of work was done on it was 2004.
>
> Siesta came about because some people said "wah! we're using a mailing
> list manager written in python, which is evil!  If there was a mailing
> list manager written in modern perl instead of the nasty perl 4 mess
> that is majordomo, then I'd volunteer to hack on it to improve it".
> So Richard wrote Siesta, to prove that those people were all mouth and
> no trousers and would not, in fact, hack on it.  He was right.

I think that equally, the conclusion is that mailing list managers are
dull and unlikely to keep you interested long enough to make anything
decent, fortunately there are some very dull people producing stuff in
python and php like sugarcrm so you don't have to ;)

A.

-- 
http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk
LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting

From Mark.OConnor at vodafone.com  Tue Feb 17 15:51:57 2009
From: Mark.OConnor at vodafone.com (O'Connor, Mark, VF UK)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:51:57 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] "The Raven" tomorrow night
In-Reply-To: <499ADC87.3010305@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <D4C000EB37763C4D892F16FEEB210A345AD5FE@VF-MBX19.internal.vodafone.com>

 I am not able to go, sorry
Mark  

-----Original Message-----
From: bristolbathpm-bounces at bristolbath.org
[mailto:bristolbathpm-bounces at bristolbath.org] On Behalf Of Lyle
Sent: 17 February 2009 15:49
To: Bristol and Bath Perl M[ou]ngers
Subject: Re: [BristolBathPM] "The Raven" tomorrow night

O'Connor, Mark, VF UK wrote:
> Hello,
> I joined your group on the website because the production of Perl 
> scripts has become a requirement of my job. I am not an expert code 
> cutter by any stretch of the imagination but am keen to learn. I may 
> be able to come the meeting tomorrow if I do I may be able to offer a 
> lift. I will know tomorrow. I live in north Bristol Westbury-on-Trym.
>   

Any chance of that lift?


Lyle

_______________________________________________
BristolBathPM mailing list
BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
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From nigel at turbo10.com  Wed Feb 18 08:34:04 2009
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:34:04 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ::Gist a new type of module for CPAN?
Message-ID: <50fec4060902180034j5ec123a1heaf081f0548f4425@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

    We had a really interesting meeting last night and we were talking about
the problem of 'prickliness' in the Perl community and being welcoming to
newcomers etc.

   Lyle identified the problem of the 'teetering mushroom' of Perl mindshare
- I'll let him explain the details.

   Mindshare is really important for Perl - it means jobs, more CPAN
modules, grants, tests, meetings, conferences, buzz, progress etc[1].

   So how can we gain more mindshare? I think the first step is to not
squander it. "Don't make me think!!" is why Ruby-on-Rails and the IPhone
work [2].

   We've all been on CPAN and floundered around looking for something that
can scratch an itch. What search term should I use? Is that module any good?
Aaargh the POD is too long! This module looks massive I just want it to do
X. Oh stuff it -- I'll write it myself. Can you hear that sound? If you
listen closely you'll hear thousands of newbies screaming. You may even hear
yourself in there. ;-)

   Earlier this year I came up with an idea for a new type of CPAN module
that extracts the "::Gist" out of other modules. It's kind of like Adam
Kennedy's ::Tiny modules except it is optimised for programmer wetware not
software[3].

  ::Gist modules are simple, user-friendly and "don't make me think".

   To carry the ::Gist brand - the module should:

  * Don't Make Me Think!!
  * include a cut-and-paste synopsis - that just runs
  * POD less than one page - guaranteed
  * minimal methods (never more than 2?)
  * assume a newbie target audience
  * solve the 9 out of 10 times use case
  * give proper credit to the wrapped author and module [4]
  * be approved by the wrapped author
  * be search engine optimised (SEO) for the problem space - not the
solution space - people searching Google should find these modules.

Potential new users get introduced to a module via the ::Gist route - as
their needs and knowledge inevitably expands - they find the monolithic
module/POD behind the scenes.

For users ::Gist modules offer a user-friendly way to scratch an itch fast -
without overloading them.
For module authors ::Gist modules offer an on-ramp for new users arriving at
their module.

I'm personally planning ::Gist modules for my favourite two CPAN modules:
DBIx::Simple and Template::Simple - but there's lots more.

I'm hoping others from Bristol&Bath.pm will help the cause - can you think
of any modules that need the ::Gist taken out of them?

I'm happy for the ::Gist project to be hosted by a user-friendly group, that
encourages new people entering the Perl world.

If other people in the group think it's a good idea then I would like to add
a project page to the group's wiki?

Nige

[1] It's why I care about Perl's brand and trade marks
[2] This also helps solve Perl's marketing problem.
[3] I realise module wrappers introduce an unnecessary layer of indirection
- but programmer not computational efficiency is the goal
[4] Ideally CPAN authors would be lining up to have the ::Gist taken out of
their module - ::Gist modules point users in their direction. I think as a
courtesy to the original module author ::Gist modules should always come
with the approval of the original module author and a matching licence.
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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Wed Feb 18 20:30:25 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:30:25 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ::Gist a new type of module for CPAN?
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060902180034j5ec123a1heaf081f0548f4425@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060902180034j5ec123a1heaf081f0548f4425@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <499C6FE1.7080209@cosmicperl.com>

Nigel Hamilton wrote:
> Hi,
>
>     We had a really interesting meeting last night and we were talking 
> about the problem of 'prickliness' in the Perl community and being 
> welcoming to newcomers etc.
>
>    Lyle identified the problem of the 'teetering mushroom' of Perl 
> mindshare - I'll let him explain the details.

I'm afraid people might have to wait until the tech meet :-P

>    Earlier this year I came up with an idea for a new type of CPAN 
> module that extracts the "::Gist" out of other modules. It's kind of 
> like Adam Kennedy's ::Tiny modules except it is optimised for 
> programmer wetware not software[3]. 
>
>   ::Gist modules are simple, user-friendly and "don't make me think".
>
>    To carry the ::Gist brand - the module should:
>
>   * Don't Make Me Think!!
>   * include a cut-and-paste synopsis - that just runs
>   * POD less than one page - guaranteed
>   * minimal methods (never more than 2?)
>   * assume a newbie target audience
>   * solve the 9 out of 10 times use case
>   * give proper credit to the wrapped author and module [4]
>   * be approved by the wrapped author
>   * be search engine optimised (SEO) for the problem space - not the 
> solution space - people searching Google should find these modules.

Wouldn't this be better as Gist::? I'm not totally sure on having 
minimum methods. Modules like Email::Stuff have some very short but 
useful methods like to, from, subject, etc. I think to cut that down to 
just header and send would actually make things a bit more confusing...

> I'm hoping others from Bristol&Bath.pm will help the cause - can you 
> think of any modules that need the ::Gist taken out of them?

I'd be tempted to suck the Gist out of a couple of modules I've used 
recently :)

> I'm happy for the ::Gist project to be hosted by a user-friendly 
> group, that encourages new people entering the Perl world.
>
> If other people in the group think it's a good idea then I would like 
> to add a project page to the group's wiki?

Go ahead. Be nice to have some on there that aren't mine, lol


Lyle


From david at cantrell.org.uk  Thu Feb 19 14:09:25 2009
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:09:25 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ::Gist a new type of module for CPAN?
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060902180034j5ec123a1heaf081f0548f4425@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060902180034j5ec123a1heaf081f0548f4425@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090219140925.GF19417@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 08:34:04AM +0000, Nigel Hamilton wrote:

> Earlier this year I came up with an idea for a new type of CPAN module
> that extracts the "::Gist" out of other modules. It's kind of like Adam
> Kennedy's ::Tiny modules except it is optimised for programmer wetware not
> software[3].
> 
>   ::Gist modules are simple, user-friendly and "don't make me think".

I'm not sure it'll work, but trying can't do any harm :-)  I would suggest,
however, calling it ...::Essentials instead of ...::Gist, as "gist" is a
rarely-used word that won't mean anything to the majority of people who
don't speak English natively - and even native speakers might not
understand exactly what a ::Gist module is meant to be and how it
differs from ::Simple.

Something else to consider is that it's often poor documentation that's
the problem, not complicated interfaces.  And the "poor" documentation
is often poor by dint of being ever-so-complete and ever-so-correct
without showing examples of common usage.  So maybe contributing
HOWTO.pod files to distributions would be a way of achieving your aims.
I started work on CPAN::API::HOWTO a few months ago.

-- 
David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world

          All praise the Sun God
          For He is a Fun God
          Ra Ra Ra!

From mjr at phonecoop.coop  Thu Feb 19 14:33:46 2009
From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:33:46 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Companies/Programmers for hire [Was: Jobs?]
In-Reply-To: <20090217144445.GG12438@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
References: <4999CB33.10706@cosmicperl.com> <1234871169.8817.1.camel@localhost>
	<c37577dd0902170403t732346ffv86aa97ca962a415a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1234873778.8817.5.camel@localhost> <499AB0EF.1090204@cosmicperl.com>
	<c37577dd0902170457q7c0fe726hf6a59934b86c5ef4@mail.gmail.com>
	<499AB884.6080207@cosmicperl.com>
	<20090217144445.GG12438@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
Message-ID: <499d6dca.Y64Io70ZnHOoRHYD%mjr@phonecoop.coop>

David Cantrell <david at cantrell.org.uk> wrote:
> Hehe, I was going to post about how you don't have to do everything in
> perl, and my other example apart from mediawiki would be mailman.
> Really, both mediawiki and mailman are very good, and the effort
> required to do better in perl would, in my opinion, be too much to make
> it worthwhile.

I don't like Mailman and feel it's not a very good project.  There are
bugs and submitted patches just sit there for years.  For example,
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1054944&group_id=103&atid=100103
(and yes, I've also tried emailing them, using informal contacts at
FSF and so on).  I think the Mailman project is in pole position and
doesn't feel it needs to be good to continue.  Competition needed?

Sympa is a usable perl mailing list manager.  http://www.sympa.org/
Across all implementation languages, Enemies of Carlotta, mlmmj and
GroupServer are nicer than Mailman in my experience.  I do remember
battling MajorDomo, though.

I haven't had much to do with MediaWiki, but Kwiki seemed OK a few
years ago.  I quite like what HantsLUG have been trying to do with
UseMod to make it into a more abuse-resistant one called AbUseMod too.

Regards,
-- 
MJ Ray (slef)
Webmaster for hire, statistician and online shop builder for a small
worker cooperative http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/
(Notice http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html) tel:+44-844-4437-237

From nigel at turbo10.com  Thu Feb 19 20:34:45 2009
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:34:45 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ::Gist a new type of module for CPAN?
In-Reply-To: <20090219140925.GF19417@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
References: <50fec4060902180034j5ec123a1heaf081f0548f4425@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090219140925.GF19417@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
Message-ID: <50fec4060902191234s4c9fabamed7110f128d26932@mail.gmail.com>

HI David,

>
> >   ::Gist modules are simple, user-friendly and "don't make me think".
>
> I'm not sure it'll work, but trying can't do any harm :-)  I would suggest,
> however, calling it ...::Essentials instead of ...::Gist, as "gist" is a
> rarely-used word that won't mean anything to the majority of people who
> don't speak English natively - and even native speakers might not
> understand exactly what a ::Gist module is meant to be and how it
> differs from ::Simple.
>

Good point. If one of the goals is to not make people think - then using a
funky word may not help. On the other hand any good brand needs to be
distinctive not descriptive ... and "Essentials" could be a little too
descriptive ... hmm ... ideally I want it to mean 'extract the essential
bit' ... something short and pithy that non-English speakers could easily
understand ... tricky. I'm open to suggestions.


>
> Something else to consider is that it's often poor documentation that's
> the problem, not complicated interfaces.


Indeed. Template::Simple has a great interface - but unfortunately the
documentation is a little long IMHO.


>  And the "poor" documentation
> is often poor by dint of being ever-so-complete and ever-so-correct
> without showing examples of common usage.


Module authors are understandably keen to fully document their module - but
this can work at odds to introducing new users to the problem and the
module's solution.


>  So maybe contributing
> HOWTO.pod files to distributions would be a way of achieving your aims.
> I started work on CPAN::API::HOWTO a few months ago.
>

I'll take a look at this. I'm yet to fully sit down and try and take the
'gist' out of some modules - so it may be a lot harder to do than I think.

Thanks for your comments.

Nige
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From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Fri Feb 20 10:21:45 2009
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:21:45 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ::Gist a new type of module for CPAN?
References: <50fec4060902180034j5ec123a1heaf081f0548f4425@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090219140925.GF19417@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<50fec4060902191234s4c9fabamed7110f128d26932@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20090220102145.31197.9696@edison.ioppublishing.com>

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:34:45 +0000, Nigel Hamilton wrote:
> > I'm not sure it'll work, but trying can't do any harm :-) I would
> > suggest, however, calling it ...::Essentials instead of ...::Gist,
> > as "gist" is a rarely-used word that won't mean anything to the
> > majority of people who don't speak English natively - and even
> > native speakers might not understand exactly what a ::Gist module
> > is meant to be and how it differs from ::Simple.
>
> Good point. If one of the goals is to not make people think - then
> using a funky word may not help. On the other hand any good brand
> needs to be distinctive not descriptive ... and "Essentials" could
> be a little too descriptive ... hmm ... ideally I want it to mean
> 'extract the essential bit' ... something short and pithy that non-
> English speakers could easily understand ... tricky. I'm open to
> suggestions.

How about Essential:: or Essence:: ? The problem with adding something
to the end is that you might conflict with the original module's
naming scheme. By contrast, starting a new top-level namespace makes
the project look more cohesive, and provides an obvious location for
the core philosophy.

The other potential advantage that the prefix namespace affords is
that in pathological cases, you can extract multiple essences from
the same original module. I'm not sure this is necessarily a good
idea, though.


> > Something else to consider is that it's often poor documentation
> > that's the problem, not complicated interfaces.
>
> Indeed. Template::Simple has a great interface - but unfortunately
> the documentation is a little long IMHO.
>
> > And the "poor" documentation is often poor by dint of being ever-so-
> > complete and ever-so-correct without showing examples of common
> > usage.
>
> Module authors are understandably keen to fully document their
> module - but this can work at odds to introducing new users to the
> problem and the module's solution.

This is what I understood to be the main thrust of the project - to
document the essence of the module, giving a leg up to neophytes. The
cut and paste synopsis can be used directly in real code, and the rest
of the one-page POD explains why it's such a great idea. I'd like to
suggest that you could also include pointers in the POD for where to
look when the next level of sophistication is required, possibly in
sections which go beyond the one-page limit.

If at all possible, the essence should use the same API as the
original module, even being a derived class where appropriate, making
it simple to migrate to the full-fat API.

Here are a few more possible namespaces, modulo your prefered
capitalization scheme:
* FirstStep:: or FirstSteps::
* HowTo::
* StartWith::


Ooh, close match, sigmonster:

-- 
	Peter Haworth	pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com
"At IBM, we have no hesitation to steal or borrow other companies'
 technologies ... well, we don't steal of course."
	-- Bill Etherington

This email (and attachments) are confidential and intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender, 
delete any copies and do not take action in reliance on it. Any views expressed are the author's and do not represent those of IOP, except where specifically 
stated. IOP takes reasonable precautions to protect against viruses but accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from virus infection. 
For the protection of IOP's systems and staff emails are scanned automatically.? 

Institute of Physics Registered in England under Registration No 293851 
Registered Office:  76/78 Portland Place, London W1B 1NT  
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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Feb 20 11:40:03 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:40:03 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Companies/Programmers for hire [Was: Jobs?]
In-Reply-To: <499d6dca.Y64Io70ZnHOoRHYD%mjr@phonecoop.coop>
References: <4999CB33.10706@cosmicperl.com>
	<1234871169.8817.1.camel@localhost>	<c37577dd0902170403t732346ffv86aa97ca962a415a@mail.gmail.com>	<1234873778.8817.5.camel@localhost>
	<499AB0EF.1090204@cosmicperl.com>	<c37577dd0902170457q7c0fe726hf6a59934b86c5ef4@mail.gmail.com>	<499AB884.6080207@cosmicperl.com>	<20090217144445.GG12438@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<499d6dca.Y64Io70ZnHOoRHYD%mjr@phonecoop.coop>
Message-ID: <499E9693.6000103@cosmicperl.com>

MJ Ray wrote:
> I don't like Mailman and feel it's not a very good project.

I don't see why Mailman is so highly regarded. Period. I think it's 
rubbish, I think the admin is bad, the lack of an export feature is 
terrible. It feels like using something from the early 90's... That you 
have have to have a list called 'mailman', that the default design looks 
like someone has followed an early online guide on "how to make a HTML 
page", and this was their first attempt...

I'll stop there.

Is that my first negative rant?


Lyle


From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Feb 20 11:44:31 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:44:31 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] New pages - [Was: Companies/Programmers for hire]
Message-ID: <499E979F.3070904@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  These pages are now up. I was going to put the programmers list in a 
table, but this version of Kwiki seems to have a bug recognising it's 
table syntax. I'll try and get upgraded to the newer version asap.


Lyle


From david at cantrell.org.uk  Fri Feb 20 12:42:55 2009
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 12:42:55 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ::Gist a new type of module for CPAN?
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20090220102145.31197.9696@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <50fec4060902180034j5ec123a1heaf081f0548f4425@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090219140925.GF19417@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<50fec4060902191234s4c9fabamed7110f128d26932@mail.gmail.com>
	<PGM.20090220102145.31197.9696@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <20090220124255.GB18147@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 10:21:45AM +0000, Peter Haworth wrote:

> How about Essential:: or Essence:: ? The problem with adding something
> to the end is that you might conflict with the original module's
> naming scheme. By contrast, starting a new top-level namespace makes
> the project look more cohesive, and provides an obvious location for
> the core philosophy.

A good point.  Linguistically, of course, it should be EssentialsOf:: -
after all, you would talk about "the essentials of CPAN.pm" and "the
CPAN.pm essentials".

> The other potential advantage that the prefix namespace affords is
> that in pathological cases, you can extract multiple essences from
> the same original module. I'm not sure this is necessarily a good
> idea, though.

I think it could be a good idea.  There are modules out there which are
rather like those crazy tramps who wander around with a shopping trolley
piled high with plastic bags containing the mouldering remains of their
possessions.  DateTime, for example, has methods for handling timezones;
methods for doing date/time maths; methods for formatting dates/times.
Quite often when I use it I only want to use one very small part of it.
Or CGI.pm, which has methods for handling forms; methods for handling
cookies; and methods for generating HTML.

-- 
David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic

Anyone willing to give up a little fun for tolerance deserves neither

From nigel at turbo10.com  Fri Feb 20 13:30:46 2009
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 13:30:46 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ::Gist a new type of module for CPAN?
In-Reply-To: <20090220124255.GB18147@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
References: <50fec4060902180034j5ec123a1heaf081f0548f4425@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090219140925.GF19417@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<50fec4060902191234s4c9fabamed7110f128d26932@mail.gmail.com>
	<PGM.20090220102145.31197.9696@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<20090220124255.GB18147@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
Message-ID: <50fec4060902200530y32afbefax30bdfcd123cdb665@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

>
> > How about Essential:: or Essence:: ? The problem with adding something
> > to the end is that you might conflict with the original module's
> > naming scheme. By contrast, starting a new top-level namespace makes
> > the project look more cohesive, and provides an obvious location for
> > the core philosophy.
>
> A good point.  Linguistically, of course, it should be EssentialsOf:: -
> after all, you would talk about "the essentials of CPAN.pm" and "the
> CPAN.pm essentials".
>

OK. So it sounds like there should be a top-level name space - I'm just not
sure about the length of 'EssentialsOf' .... I initially started with -
atomic, nano (i.e., smaller than tiny), uno (for one method only - probably
not doable) --- or you could go for an acronym ...

EOF - essentials of?

EOF::DBIx::Simple
EOF::Template::Simple
Eof::DBIx::Simple

Hmmm - not sure ... it's slightly overloaded with end of file.

I'd like to keep the prefix short so it acts more like a pointer ...


> > The other potential advantage that the prefix namespace affords is
> > that in pathological cases, you can extract multiple essences from
> > the same original module. I'm not sure this is necessarily a good
> > idea, though.
>
> I think it could be a good idea.  There are modules out there which are
> rather like those crazy tramps who wander around with a shopping trolley
> piled high with plastic bags containing the mouldering remains of their
> possessions.  DateTime, for example, has methods for handling timezones;
> methods for doing date/time maths; methods for formatting dates/times.


Haha ... the DateTime module makes me think of Gregorian monks brewing beer
playing April fools jokes on each other. Meanwhile I really just need to
know the date for yesterday.


> Quite often when I use it I only want to use one very small part of it.
> Or CGI.pm, which has methods for handling forms; methods for handling
> cookies; and methods for generating HTML.


Yes. When I first learnt Perl CGI.pm was a scary module - it's things like
this you could hide under the covers - until if/when the user wants it.

NIge
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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Feb 20 13:36:11 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 13:36:11 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Have you seen...
Message-ID: <499EB1CB.8000502@cosmicperl.com>

http://www.ff0000.com/

You can interact with other people on the site. Just reload if you 
cannot see them at first.

Tip: Use arrow keys and Ctrl+Shift to punch people!


Lyle


From paulm at paulm.com  Fri Feb 20 13:47:48 2009
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 13:47:48 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ::Gist a new type of module for CPAN?
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060902200530y32afbefax30bdfcd123cdb665@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060902180034j5ec123a1heaf081f0548f4425@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090219140925.GF19417@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<50fec4060902191234s4c9fabamed7110f128d26932@mail.gmail.com>
	<PGM.20090220102145.31197.9696@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<20090220124255.GB18147@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<50fec4060902200530y32afbefax30bdfcd123cdb665@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0902200547t60c7ab0ft1c068109e93a797a@mail.gmail.com>

Use Gist. It's a great word: short, to the point, and exactly conveys what
you're trying to do. If someone doesn't know what a word means, they can use
a dictionary. Perl has never been about dumbing down use of language!

If we have "glob", "splice", "zero width negative lookahead assertion", I
see no objection to "gist".

On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Nigel Hamilton <nigel at turbo10.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
>>
>> > How about Essential:: or Essence:: ? The problem with adding something
>> > to the end is that you might conflict with the original module's
>> > naming scheme. By contrast, starting a new top-level namespace makes
>> > the project look more cohesive, and provides an obvious location for
>> > the core philosophy.
>>
>> A good point.  Linguistically, of course, it should be EssentialsOf:: -
>> after all, you would talk about "the essentials of CPAN.pm" and "the
>> CPAN.pm essentials".
>>
>
> OK. So it sounds like there should be a top-level name space - I'm just not
> sure about the length of 'EssentialsOf' .... I initially started with -
> atomic, nano (i.e., smaller than tiny), uno (for one method only - probably
> not doable) --- or you could go for an acronym ...
>
> EOF - essentials of?
>
> EOF::DBIx::Simple
> EOF::Template::Simple
> Eof::DBIx::Simple
>
> Hmmm - not sure ... it's slightly overloaded with end of file.
>
> I'd like to keep the prefix short so it acts more like a pointer ...
>
>
>> > The other potential advantage that the prefix namespace affords is
>> > that in pathological cases, you can extract multiple essences from
>> > the same original module. I'm not sure this is necessarily a good
>> > idea, though.
>>
>> I think it could be a good idea.  There are modules out there which are
>> rather like those crazy tramps who wander around with a shopping trolley
>> piled high with plastic bags containing the mouldering remains of their
>> possessions.  DateTime, for example, has methods for handling timezones;
>> methods for doing date/time maths; methods for formatting dates/times.
>
>
> Haha ... the DateTime module makes me think of Gregorian monks brewing beer
> playing April fools jokes on each other. Meanwhile I really just need to
> know the date for yesterday.
>
>
>> Quite often when I use it I only want to use one very small part of it.
>> Or CGI.pm, which has methods for handling forms; methods for handling
>> cookies; and methods for generating HTML.
>
>
> Yes. When I first learnt Perl CGI.pm was a scary module - it's things like
> this you could hide under the covers - until if/when the user wants it.
>
> NIge
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>
>
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From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Fri Feb 20 15:10:30 2009
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 15:10:30 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ::Gist a new type of module for CPAN?
References: <50fec4060902180034j5ec123a1heaf081f0548f4425@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090219140925.GF19417@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<50fec4060902191234s4c9fabamed7110f128d26932@mail.gmail.com>
	<PGM.20090220102145.31197.9696@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<20090220124255.GB18147@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<50fec4060902200530y32afbefax30bdfcd123cdb665@mail.gmail.com>
	<c37577dd0902200547t60c7ab0ft1c068109e93a797a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20090220151030.31197.9697@edison.ioppublishing.com>

On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 13:47:48 +0000, Paul Makepeace wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Nigel Hamilton
> <nigel at turbo10.com> wrote:

   [Shouldn't there be some more attributions here? Naughty Nigel!]

> >> > How about Essential:: or Essence:: ? The problem with adding
> >> > something to the end is that you might conflict with the
> >> > original module's naming scheme. By contrast, starting a new
> >> > top-level namespace makes the project look more cohesive, and
> >> > provides an obvious location for the core philosophy.
> >>
> >> A good point. Linguistically, of course, it should be
> >> EssentialsOf:: - after all, you would talk about "the essentials
> >> of CPAN.pm" and "the CPAN.pm essentials".

It would be a rare exception among names usually picked to reflect
hierarchy rather than to read like English. After all, would you
rather use Class::DBI or ClassConstructorUsing::DBI? (I haven't used
it at all, so this may be not an accurate reflection of what it
actually does).

That said, I did suggest Essential:: instead of Essentials:: because
it would read nicely. It also has a nice double meaning suitable for
this project.


> > OK. So it sounds like there should be a top-level name space - I'm
> > just not sure about the length of 'EssentialsOf' .... I initially
> > started with - atomic, nano (i.e., smaller than tiny), uno (for
> > one method only - probably not doable)

Of those, atomic is the best. It's nice and short, and does capture
the intent to some extent, but I don't think it's close enough, and
could easily be misread as relating to physics rather than
kickstarting development.

> > or you could go for an acronym ...
> >
> > EOF - essentials of?
> >
> > EOF::DBIx::Simple
> > EOF::Template::Simple
> > Eof::DBIx::Simple
> >
> > Hmmm - not sure ... it's slightly overloaded with end of file.

And it violates the "don't make me think" principle.


> > I'd like to keep the prefix short so it acts more like a
> > pointer ...
>
> Use Gist. It's a great word: short, to the point, and exactly
> conveys what you're trying to do. If someone doesn't know what a
> word means, they can use a dictionary. Perl has never been about
> dumbing down use of language!

I'm in almost in complete agreement, except for "don't make me think"
again. We all know what "gist" means, but someone searching CPAN
seeing these names for the first time may not make the connection
we're looking for. It is the shortest meaningful name though. A quick
look in the thesaurus only supplies longer words:
* Crucial
* Elemental, Elementary
* Fundamental, Fundament/s
* Innate

-- 
	Peter Haworth	pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com
"Sometimes I wonder if I wouldn't have been better off creating
 a cult of forbidden secrets instead of a computer company."
		-- http://ubersoft.net/d/20030602.html

This email (and attachments) are confidential and intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender, 
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From jamie at shareable.org  Fri Feb 20 16:40:16 2009
From: jamie at shareable.org (Jamie Lokier)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 16:40:16 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ::Gist a new type of module for CPAN?
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20090220102145.31197.9696@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <50fec4060902180034j5ec123a1heaf081f0548f4425@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090219140925.GF19417@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<50fec4060902191234s4c9fabamed7110f128d26932@mail.gmail.com>
	<PGM.20090220102145.31197.9696@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <20090220164016.GD9726@shareable.org>

How about Basics::

-- Jamie

From nigel at turbo10.com  Sat Feb 21 07:27:17 2009
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 07:27:17 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ::Gist a new type of module for CPAN?
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20090220151030.31197.9697@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <50fec4060902180034j5ec123a1heaf081f0548f4425@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090219140925.GF19417@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<50fec4060902191234s4c9fabamed7110f128d26932@mail.gmail.com>
	<PGM.20090220102145.31197.9696@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<20090220124255.GB18147@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<50fec4060902200530y32afbefax30bdfcd123cdb665@mail.gmail.com>
	<c37577dd0902200547t60c7ab0ft1c068109e93a797a@mail.gmail.com>
	<PGM.20090220151030.31197.9697@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <50fec4060902202327w4607f0b6s847b3bd56499956@mail.gmail.com>

> > > I'd like to keep the prefix short so it acts more like a
> > > pointer ...
> >
> > Use Gist. It's a great word: short, to the point, and exactly
> > conveys what you're trying to do. If someone doesn't know what a
> > word means, they can use a dictionary. Perl has never been about
> > dumbing down use of language!
>
> I'm in almost in complete agreement, except for "don't make me think"
> again. We all know what "gist" means, but someone searching CPAN
> seeing these names for the first time may not make the connection
> we're looking for. It is the shortest meaningful name though. A quick
> look in the thesaurus only supplies longer words:
> * Crucial
> * Elemental, Elementary
> * Fundamental, Fundament/s
> * Innate
>

Thanks for your feedback Peter and everyone else. I'm going to stick with
'Gist' as it has the rare quality of being distinctive and yet describes
exactly what the Gist:: namespace is trying to do. It's also only 4 letters
long.

So the next steps are:

* escape the Moosification vortex I'm currently in (hopefully soon)
* actually take the Gist:: of some modules - and release them to CPAN
* come up with a checklist that a Gist module must pass[1]
* add the checklist and a short project description to the Bristol&Bath.pm
site[2]
* encourage others to create Gist:: modules, pass the checklist and publish
to CPAN.

NIge

[1] This checklist will define the brand and guide module authors. It will
include things like: don't make me think, synopsis that runs, original
author's permission etc.

[2] This is a user-friendly project for a user-friendly group.
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From something at amias.org.uk  Mon Feb 23 13:34:05 2009
From: something at amias.org.uk (Amias Channer)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:34:05 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ::Gist a new type of module for CPAN?
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060902202327w4607f0b6s847b3bd56499956@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060902180034j5ec123a1heaf081f0548f4425@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090219140925.GF19417@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<50fec4060902191234s4c9fabamed7110f128d26932@mail.gmail.com>
	<PGM.20090220102145.31197.9696@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<20090220124255.GB18147@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<50fec4060902200530y32afbefax30bdfcd123cdb665@mail.gmail.com>
	<c37577dd0902200547t60c7ab0ft1c068109e93a797a@mail.gmail.com>
	<PGM.20090220151030.31197.9697@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<50fec4060902202327w4607f0b6s847b3bd56499956@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1235396045.8007.37.camel@localhost>

On Sat, 2009-02-21 at 07:27 +0000, Nigel Hamilton wrote:
> 'Gist'

Does it need to be a whole new module ? 

use Some::Module qw/:gist/;

as in modules can be told to only initialise a smaller subset of their
functions and otherwise behave in a simpler manner than they might have 
done.

If people actually have to use different modules then Gist:: could
become a bit of a ghetto if a lag between full and gist versions starts
to appear. More modules == more dependency issues.

To my mind this is really an issue of not having particularly clearly
defined and documented structures to pass between modules , with each
one having its own flavour of crack but that could be a function of me
not reading the manuals.

invoice(2p);

Toodle-pip
Amias



From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Mon Feb 23 14:51:37 2009
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:51:37 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] jobs and stuff
Message-ID: <edcafa7d0902230651t3bb87c0apb1980fe1e984b7be@mail.gmail.com>

Just had a chat with Stewart of Novate, seems a nice enough chap
(hello again *wave*) about my beef with the wierd stipulation of
living in Bath for the advertised 50k perl role in Bath.

I still think the ad was lacking some pretty important info, such as
the client's strict stipulation that you absolutely postively have to
live in or very near bath (because leaving 30 mins early on a friday
would be utterly impossible), any description at all of why you might
want to work there beyond the salary, any description of what the role
actually entails, etc.

So Novate-IT aren't all bad, just have some client's with oddly strict
requirements and some unhelpfully sparse job ads.

I still contend that the IT job market in the southwest is pretty much
stagnant, bath and bristol used to have some lifeblood, but it looks
much worse now than when I last looked about 3 years ago, and the
further west you go it's even worse - cornwall manages to not only
have few jobs but patheticly poor salary - something is very wrong
when you can get more with a 12 months experience working in retail
banking than a degree and years of experience in programming (for
instance realtime/embeded C++ for medicine, < 25 grand, non-junior web
dev 18 grand).

A.

-- 
http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk
LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting

From paulm at paulm.com  Mon Feb 23 14:56:47 2009
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:56:47 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] jobs and stuff
In-Reply-To: <edcafa7d0902230651t3bb87c0apb1980fe1e984b7be@mail.gmail.com>
References: <edcafa7d0902230651t3bb87c0apb1980fe1e984b7be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0902230656m2c089d6cx51b854b2d31e9f2c@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, I think it's called "global recession".

This has the effect that companies, those that are still around, can
and will call the shots.

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Aaron Trevena <aaron.trevena at gmail.com> wrote:
> Just had a chat with Stewart of Novate, seems a nice enough chap
> (hello again *wave*) about my beef with the wierd stipulation of
> living in Bath for the advertised 50k perl role in Bath.
>
> I still think the ad was lacking some pretty important info, such as
> the client's strict stipulation that you absolutely postively have to
> live in or very near bath (because leaving 30 mins early on a friday
> would be utterly impossible), any description at all of why you might
> want to work there beyond the salary, any description of what the role
> actually entails, etc.
>
> So Novate-IT aren't all bad, just have some client's with oddly strict
> requirements and some unhelpfully sparse job ads.
>
> I still contend that the IT job market in the southwest is pretty much
> stagnant, bath and bristol used to have some lifeblood, but it looks
> much worse now than when I last looked about 3 years ago, and the
> further west you go it's even worse - cornwall manages to not only
> have few jobs but patheticly poor salary - something is very wrong
> when you can get more with a 12 months experience working in retail
> banking than a degree and years of experience in programming (for
> instance realtime/embeded C++ for medicine, < 25 grand, non-junior web
> dev 18 grand).
>
> A.
>
> --
> http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk
> LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>

From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Mon Feb 23 15:01:45 2009
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:01:45 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] jobs and stuff
In-Reply-To: <c37577dd0902230656m2c089d6cx51b854b2d31e9f2c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <edcafa7d0902230651t3bb87c0apb1980fe1e984b7be@mail.gmail.com>
	<c37577dd0902230656m2c089d6cx51b854b2d31e9f2c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <edcafa7d0902230701g3dd5f40ey345f7d9ae5382dc6@mail.gmail.com>

2009/2/23 Paul Makepeace <paulm at paulm.com>:
> Yeah, I think it's called "global recession".

No, cornwall is in perpetual recession, it's always like this. really.

Even during the dot-com crash there was more life in bristol and bath,
I think london and the south east have sucked more life out the
regions.

> This has the effect that companies, those that are still around, can
> and will call the shots.

..and those any half-way decent staff sharpish as soon as things pick
up, or anything better comes along.

A.

-- 
http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk
LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting

From Stewart.Smith at novate-it.co.uk  Mon Feb 23 15:02:49 2009
From: Stewart.Smith at novate-it.co.uk (Stewart Smith)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:02:49 -0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] jobs and stuff
In-Reply-To: <edcafa7d0902230651t3bb87c0apb1980fe1e984b7be@mail.gmail.com>
References: <edcafa7d0902230651t3bb87c0apb1980fe1e984b7be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <63AE6FC0BC1C7B46967A53AFE50BC97A621D2C@NOVATE.NovateIT.local>

> Just had a chat with Stewart of Novate, seems a nice enough chap
> (hello again *wave*) about my beef with the wierd stipulation of
> living in Bath for the advertised 50k perl role in Bath.

Many thanks!!! And hello to you too!

> I still contend that the IT job market in the southwest is pretty much
> stagnant.............

You entirely right in the points you make, it is stagnant and there are
a few companies in the deeper reaches of the SW who try to get away with
very low salaries. Good roles do come up but get filled very quickly, an
example is a Perl position in Bristol we recruited into just before
Christmas. We were instructed by the client and had placed the candidate
within 2 weeks. My only advice is to keep your eyes peeled constantly
for the right role in the right location.


From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Mon Feb 23 15:33:41 2009
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:33:41 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] jobs and stuff
In-Reply-To: <63AE6FC0BC1C7B46967A53AFE50BC97A621D2C@NOVATE.NovateIT.local>
References: <edcafa7d0902230651t3bb87c0apb1980fe1e984b7be@mail.gmail.com>
	<63AE6FC0BC1C7B46967A53AFE50BC97A621D2C@NOVATE.NovateIT.local>
Message-ID: <edcafa7d0902230733r3a13ddd1t419f54c419031a4@mail.gmail.com>

> You entirely right in the points you make, it is stagnant and there are
> a few companies in the deeper reaches of the SW who try to get away with
> very low salaries. Good roles do come up but get filled very quickly, an
> example is a Perl position in Bristol we recruited into just before
> Christmas. We were instructed by the client and had placed the candidate
> within 2 weeks. My only advice is to keep your eyes peeled constantly
> for the right role in the right location.

Obviously certain sectors are immune from recession :

http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=69511205498&h=XOKJM&u=58csi

Can anybody make head and tail of that mandarin gibberish ?

What the heck is "the digital community" anybody with a digital watch?

A.


-- 
http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk
LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting

From david at cantrell.org.uk  Mon Feb 23 16:35:10 2009
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:35:10 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] jobs and stuff
In-Reply-To: <edcafa7d0902230733r3a13ddd1t419f54c419031a4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <edcafa7d0902230651t3bb87c0apb1980fe1e984b7be@mail.gmail.com>
	<63AE6FC0BC1C7B46967A53AFE50BC97A621D2C@NOVATE.NovateIT.local>
	<edcafa7d0902230733r3a13ddd1t419f54c419031a4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090223163510.GA19186@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 03:33:41PM +0000, Aaron Trevena wrote:

> Obviously certain sectors are immune from recession :

My advice is to look for anything to do with health care.  People will
*always* get ill.  Hospitals always need a monkey to plug things in and
show doctors where the "any" key is.

-- 
David Cantrell | Bourgeois reactionary pig

    "There's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza."
    "WHAT MAKES YOU SAY THERE IS A HOLE IN YOUR BUCKET?"

From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Mon Feb 23 18:40:56 2009
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:40:56 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] jobs and stuff
In-Reply-To: <20090223163510.GA19186@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
References: <edcafa7d0902230651t3bb87c0apb1980fe1e984b7be@mail.gmail.com>
	<63AE6FC0BC1C7B46967A53AFE50BC97A621D2C@NOVATE.NovateIT.local>
	<edcafa7d0902230733r3a13ddd1t419f54c419031a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090223163510.GA19186@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
Message-ID: <edcafa7d0902231040r57146418l3e828c029cf65344@mail.gmail.com>

2009/2/23 David Cantrell <david at cantrell.org.uk>:
> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 03:33:41PM +0000, Aaron Trevena wrote:
>
>> Obviously certain sectors are immune from recession :
>
> My advice is to look for anything to do with health care.  People will
> *always* get ill.  Hospitals always need a monkey to plug things in and
> show doctors where the "any" key is.

The civil service looks pretty cushty, but guido's blog about MEPs on
sunday shows that the euro parliament is still the top gravy train [1]

A.

1] http://www.order-order.com/2009/02/who-wants-to-be-millionaire-mep.html

-- 
http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk
LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting

From dave at dave.org.uk  Mon Feb 23 19:53:37 2009
From: dave at dave.org.uk (Dave Cross)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:53:37 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] jobs and stuff
In-Reply-To: <edcafa7d0902231040r57146418l3e828c029cf65344@mail.gmail.com>
References: <edcafa7d0902230651t3bb87c0apb1980fe1e984b7be@mail.gmail.com>	<63AE6FC0BC1C7B46967A53AFE50BC97A621D2C@NOVATE.NovateIT.local>	<edcafa7d0902230733r3a13ddd1t419f54c419031a4@mail.gmail.com>	<20090223163510.GA19186@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<edcafa7d0902231040r57146418l3e828c029cf65344@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49A2FEC1.5080304@dave.org.uk>

Aaron Trevena wrote:

> The civil service looks pretty cushty, but guido's blog about MEPs on
> sunday shows that the euro parliament is still the top gravy train [1]
> 
> 1] http://www.order-order.com/2009/02/who-wants-to-be-millionaire-mep.html

That may well be true. But can't you find a more reliable source than
Paul Staines? He's not exactly trustworthy, you know.

Dave...



From aaron.trevena at gmail.com  Tue Feb 24 09:34:52 2009
From: aaron.trevena at gmail.com (Aaron Trevena)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 09:34:52 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] jobs and stuff
In-Reply-To: <49A2FEC1.5080304@dave.org.uk>
References: <edcafa7d0902230651t3bb87c0apb1980fe1e984b7be@mail.gmail.com>
	<63AE6FC0BC1C7B46967A53AFE50BC97A621D2C@NOVATE.NovateIT.local>
	<edcafa7d0902230733r3a13ddd1t419f54c419031a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090223163510.GA19186@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
	<edcafa7d0902231040r57146418l3e828c029cf65344@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A2FEC1.5080304@dave.org.uk>
Message-ID: <edcafa7d0902240134h50dc71b5x5888cdf586bcca48@mail.gmail.com>

2009/2/23 Dave Cross <dave at dave.org.uk>:
> Aaron Trevena wrote:
>
>> The civil service looks pretty cushty, but guido's blog about MEPs on
>> sunday shows that the euro parliament is still the top gravy train [1]
>>
>> 1] http://www.order-order.com/2009/02/who-wants-to-be-millionaire-mep.html
>
> That may well be true. But can't you find a more reliable source than
> Paul Staines? He's not exactly trustworthy, you know.

No he's a bit of a pompous and obnoxious bigot, but like a stopped
clock, he's still correct one time in 12 ;)

.. back on topic..

This was posted to underscore (the bath/bristol numeeja list) :

http://www.2bebrave.com/blog/blog/web-designer.html

I know it says 0 to 2 years, but you could get better pay (and
probably better long term prospects, plus benefits etc) working as a
cashier in a bank, or heck, even mcdonalds.

A.

-- 
http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk
LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Tue Feb 24 16:01:00 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 16:01:00 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] ::Gist a new type of module for CPAN?
In-Reply-To: <50fec4060902202327w4607f0b6s847b3bd56499956@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50fec4060902180034j5ec123a1heaf081f0548f4425@mail.gmail.com>	<20090219140925.GF19417@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>	<50fec4060902191234s4c9fabamed7110f128d26932@mail.gmail.com>	<PGM.20090220102145.31197.9696@edison.ioppublishing.com>	<20090220124255.GB18147@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>	<50fec4060902200530y32afbefax30bdfcd123cdb665@mail.gmail.com>	<c37577dd0902200547t60c7ab0ft1c068109e93a797a@mail.gmail.com>	<PGM.20090220151030.31197.9697@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<50fec4060902202327w4607f0b6s847b3bd56499956@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49A419BC.8040200@cosmicperl.com>

Nigel Hamilton wrote:
> So the next steps are:
>
> * escape the Moosification vortex I'm currently in (hopefully soon)
> * actually take the Gist:: of some modules - and release them to CPAN
> * come up with a checklist that a Gist module must pass[1]
> * add the checklist and a short project description to the 
> Bristol&Bath.pm site[2] 
> * encourage others to create Gist:: modules, pass the checklist and 
> publish to CPAN.

* Promote Gist:: with blog articles and site pages so that people 
understand what Gist is, ans that people looking for "Easy perl 
modules", etc have a chance of finding it.

PerlPortal.com and PerlNewbie.com would be good places to promote 
this... As soon as they are up that is :)


Lyle


From paulm at paulm.com  Fri Feb 27 16:53:51 2009
From: paulm at paulm.com (Paul Makepeace)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:53:51 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Jobs?
In-Reply-To: <c37577dd0902160739q6ba443caj59c916196cbd12e0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY105-W40C9098E4C58E6EE3AB6C3EDBC0@phx.gbl>
	<63AE6FC0BC1C7B46967A53AFE50BC97A5B8692@NOVATE.NovateIT.local>
	<edcafa7d0902160711s3dc7eda5m6979715348270cfc@mail.gmail.com>
	<c37577dd0902160739q6ba443caj59c916196cbd12e0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c37577dd0902270853o1d88940cy481a04ce82942cb9@mail.gmail.com>

Apologies for the interruption - I had a couple of people contact me
about this Perl/Catalyst gig and I mislaid the email I think (subject
change or something). If I haven't got back to you recently & you're
still interested please drop me a line.

P

On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Paul Makepeace <paulm at paulm.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 3:11 PM, Aaron Trevena <aaron.trevena at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> 2009/2/9 Stewart Smith <Stewart.Smith at novate-it.co.uk>:
>> >>>Does anyone have any suggestions that might help me in my search?
>> >
>> > There are some good Perl roles available in both Bristol and Bath at
>> > present for people with the right level of experience.
>>
>> I'd like to see some evidence of this beyond imdb's job ad.
>
> If you are decent with Catalyst, can communicate effectively through email,
> and enjoy working on medium-sized conceptually rich projects: one of the
> companies I work for* is hiring remote folks. (Not Google, although they are
> too, to a more limited extent these days.) Does that help?
> P
> * http://www.investor-dynamics.com/ - sponsors of the recent-ish London.pm
> talk series.

From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Fri Feb 27 20:38:50 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:38:50 +0000
Subject: [BristolBathPM] PerlPortal.com update
Message-ID: <49A84F5A.1000700@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  'Gossamer Threads' makers of the leading Perl based directory software 
have kindly donated a copy of Gossamer Links.

I've got it installed at:-
sites.perlportal.com

First step is to figure out what category structure we are going to 
have. The aim is to list anything and everything to do with Perl.

www.perl.org is a pretty poor example if you ask me :-P

I'll start the ball rolling

Official
Regional
Communities
Open source
Commercial
Learn
-->tutorials   (I'm planning a tutorials.perlportal.com in the future)
Help

All input very much appreciated :)


Lyle