From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Mon Jun  1 15:49:59 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 15:49:59 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Anyone got a high res projector? was: Tech meet
	update
In-Reply-To: <4A147B38.9060804@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4A147B38.9060804@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <4A23EA97.7030909@cosmicperl.com>

Hi All,
  I've just checked my old projector, and despite being badged HD Ready, 
it's native resolution is only 800x480. Does anyone have anything with a 
better res they could bring along to the tech meet?

Lyle


Lyle wrote:
> Hi All,
>   We have confirmation for the tech meet. Details:-
> June 13th (Saturday)
> Between 1pm and 6pm
> Hamilton House
> Stokes Croft
> Bristol
>
> As far as I know the speaker line up is the same as before. I know me 
> and Peter are *almost* ready. Could the other speakers please reply to 
> this and give me a final definite? I need to be hitting this out the the 
> other Perl groups, etc by the end of the week...
>
>
> Lyle
>
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>
>   

From alex.francis at gmail.com  Sun Jun  7 09:54:20 2009
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 09:54:20 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Tech meet update
In-Reply-To: <4A147B38.9060804@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4A147B38.9060804@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550906070154g4371c100i95eebe136c766293@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 10:50 PM, Lyle<webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
> ?We have confirmation for the tech meet. Details:-
> June 13th (Saturday)
> Between 1pm and 6pm
> Hamilton House
> Stokes Croft
> Bristol
>
> As far as I know the speaker line up is the same as before. I know me
> and Peter are *almost* ready. Could the other speakers please reply to
> this and give me a final definite? I need to be hitting this out the the
> other Perl groups, etc by the end of the week...
>
>

Lyle, really sorry I'm so late replying.

Count me in. Provisional topic title "Automated testing patterns with Perl"

If forget if we fixed a session length - can you remind me? Or is it
"however long you want"?

Alex


From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Tue Jun  9 10:50:26 2009
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Tue,  9 Jun 2009 10:50:26 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Tech meet update
References: <4A147B38.9060804@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20090609095026.22195.9933@edison.ioppublishing.com>

On Wed, 20 May 2009 22:50:48 +0100, Lyle wrote:
> As far as I know the speaker line up is the same as before. I know me 
> and Peter are *almost* ready. Could the other speakers please reply to 
> this and give me a final definite? I need to be hitting this out the the 
> other Perl groups, etc by the end of the week...

I've updated the Meetings page with the confirmed details I know about. If you see anything wrong, fix it yourself or let me know.

Are we still having a social meeting next week? 



-- 
	Please sponsor me: http://justgiving.com/zip60peter

"One mistyped Ctrl-Alt-Backspace-Cheese_Grater [in emacs] could inadvertently
 overflow the Chicago Ship and Sanitary Canal, sell cigarettes to four year
 olds, or collapse Albania's economy.
 Those features may have been deleted (or embellished) in the later releases."
	-- Bob Apthorpe

This email (and attachments) are confidential and intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender, 
delete any copies and do not take action in reliance on it. Any views expressed are the author's and do not represent those of IOP, except where specifically 
stated. IOP takes reasonable precautions to protect against viruses but accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from virus infection. 
For the protection of IOP's systems and staff emails are scanned automatically.? 

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From nigel at turbo10.com  Tue Jun  9 12:45:28 2009
From: nigel at turbo10.com (Nigel Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:45:28 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Tech meet update
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20090609095026.22195.9933@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <4A147B38.9060804@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20090609095026.22195.9933@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <50fec4060906090445j5423f158rec69073bd170a5ba@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> On Wed, 20 May 2009 22:50:48 +0100, Lyle wrote:
> > As far as I know the speaker line up is the same as before. I know me
> > and Peter are *almost* ready. Could the other speakers please reply to
> > this and give me a final definite? I need to be hitting this out the the
> > other Perl groups, etc by the end of the week...
>
> I've updated the Meetings page with the confirmed details I know about. If
> you see anything wrong, fix it yourself or let me know.
>
> Are we still having a social meeting next week?
>


It seems a bit too soon after the tech meet. I vote we hold it in July. The
sun might be out then too!

Nige


 ------------------------------
> This email (and attachments) are confidential and intended for the
> addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the
> sender, delete any copies and do not take action in reliance on it. Any
> views expressed are the author's and do not represent those of IOP, except
> where specifically stated. IOP takes reasonable precautions to protect
> against viruses but accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising
> from virus infection. For the protection of IOP's systems and staff emails
> are scanned automatically.?
>
> Institute of Physics Registered in England under Registration No 293851
> Registered Office:  76/78 Portland Place, London W1B 1NT
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>
>


-- 
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CEO
T10 = Search Engine + Ad Network

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Fairfax House,
15 Fulwood Place,
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From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Wed Jun 10 14:49:26 2009
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:49:26 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Anyone got a high res projector? was: Tech meet
 update
References: <4A147B38.9060804@cosmicperl.com> <4A23EA97.7030909@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20090610134926.22195.9942@edison.ioppublishing.com>

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 15:49:59 +0100, Lyle wrote:
> I've just checked my old projector, and despite being badged HD
> Ready, it's native resolution is only 800x480. Does anyone have
> anything with a better res they could bring along to the tech meet?

I've just asked here at work, and I should be able to borrow one a bit
better than that. It's very new and shiny looking.

-- 
	Please sponsor me: http://justgiving.com/zip60peter

"After all, my largest claim-to-fame in the Perl community now boils
 down to not knowing whether or not I'm an idiot.  How sad is that?"
		-- Bryan C Warnock, about "Warnock's Dilemma"

This email (and attachments) are confidential and intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender, 
delete any copies and do not take action in reliance on it. Any views expressed are the author's and do not represent those of IOP, except where specifically 
stated. IOP takes reasonable precautions to protect against viruses but accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from virus infection. 
For the protection of IOP's systems and staff emails are scanned automatically.? 

Institute of Physics Registered in England under Registration No 293851 
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From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Thu Jun 11 17:33:06 2009
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:33:06 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Tech meet update
References: <4A147B38.9060804@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20090609095026.22195.9933@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<50fec4060906090445j5423f158rec69073bd170a5ba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20090611163306.22195.9951@edison.ioppublishing.com>

On Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:45:28 +0100, Nigel Hamilton wrote:
> > Are we still having a social meeting next week?
>
> It seems a bit too soon after the tech meet. I vote we hold it in
> July. The sun might be out then too!

Seems reasonable. I've updated the schedule to cancel the June social
meeting, and flip the locations remaining socials, so Bathonians don't
get shafted by three Bristol meetings in a row. This also means that
the Christmas meeting is now in Bristol, which is something I have
been wondering how to engineer.

-- 
	Please sponsor me: http://justgiving.com/zip60peter

"It's probably the fault of closing ecological niches that we aren't all
 still swinging from trees, after all. (Of course, some of us still are,
 but that portion of us isn't heavily represented on Slashdot.
 Er...appearances to the contrary notwithstanding.)"
		-- Larry Wall

This email (and attachments) are confidential and intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender, 
delete any copies and do not take action in reliance on it. Any views expressed are the author's and do not represent those of IOP, except where specifically 
stated. IOP takes reasonable precautions to protect against viruses but accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from virus infection. 
For the protection of IOP's systems and staff emails are scanned automatically.? 

Institute of Physics Registered in England under Registration No 293851 
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From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Fri Jun 12 16:23:55 2009
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:23:55 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Tech meet update
References: <4A147B38.9060804@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20090612152355.22195.9953@edison.ioppublishing.com>

On Wed, 20 May 2009 22:50:48 +0100, Lyle wrote:
> June 13th (Saturday)
> Between 1pm and 6pm
> Hamilton House
> Stokes Croft
> Bristol

Just a final reminder: the tech meet is tomorrow!

For those of you who didn't make it to the recce back in March, the
entrance to Hamilton House is actually round the back, in City Road:
http://bit.ly/hhdoor

Amias, do we need a secret password to get in, or instructions for
finding the right bit of the building?

Now I must get back to writing my second presentation.


-- 
	Please sponsor me: http://justgiving.com/zip60peter

"To do what you propose would require the ability to peer down all the legs
 of the Trousers of Time. And Time has very complicated trousers."
		-- Piers Cawley

This email (and attachments) are confidential and intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender, 
delete any copies and do not take action in reliance on it. Any views expressed are the author's and do not represent those of IOP, except where specifically 
stated. IOP takes reasonable precautions to protect against viruses but accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from virus infection. 
For the protection of IOP's systems and staff emails are scanned automatically.? 

Institute of Physics Registered in England under Registration No 293851 
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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Sat Jun 13 00:08:26 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 00:08:26 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Tech meet update
In-Reply-To: <PGM.20090612152355.22195.9953@edison.ioppublishing.com>
References: <4A147B38.9060804@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20090612152355.22195.9953@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Message-ID: <4A32DFEA.1050103@cosmicperl.com>

Finally got my main PC fixed! Been down all week causing me all kinds of 
problems. If anyone gets lost you can call me on my mobile:-

07877 160421


Lyle


Peter Haworth wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 20 May 2009 22:50:48 +0100, Lyle wrote:
> > June 13th (Saturday)
> > Between 1pm and 6pm
> > Hamilton House
> > Stokes Croft
> > Bristol
>
> Just a final reminder: the tech meet is tomorrow!
>
> For those of you who didn't make it to the recce back in March, the
> entrance to Hamilton House is actually round the back, in City Road:
> http://bit.ly/hhdoor
>
> Amias, do we need a secret password to get in, or instructions for
> finding the right bit of the building?
>
> Now I must get back to writing my second presentation.
>
>
> -- 
> Please sponsor me: http://justgiving.com/zip60peter
>
> "To do what you propose would require the ability to peer down all the 
> legs
> of the Trousers of Time. And Time has very complicated trousers."
> -- Piers Cawley
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This email (and attachments) are confidential and intended for the 
> addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient please notify 
> the sender, delete any copies and do not take action in reliance on 
> it. Any views expressed are the author's and do not represent those of 
> IOP, except where specifically stated. IOP takes reasonable 
> precautions to protect against viruses but accepts no responsibility 
> for loss or damage arising from virus infection. For the protection of 
> IOP's systems and staff emails are scanned automatically.? 
>
> Institute of Physics Registered in England under Registration No 293851 
> Registered Office:  76/78 Portland Place, London W1B 1NT 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>   

From alex.francis at gmail.com  Sat Jun 13 19:09:16 2009
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 19:09:16 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Tech meet update
In-Reply-To: <4A32DFEA.1050103@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4A147B38.9060804@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20090612152355.22195.9953@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<4A32DFEA.1050103@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550906131109vb1f0cbk8af5696f27152947@mail.gmail.com>

So - the tech meet happened :-)

Thanks to the 3 others who made it, I enjoyed all the talks.

Quick summary for those who missed it (apologies if I misquote titles):

* My talk - Automated Testing Patterns in Perl

Quite a large topic, so my talk was broad but shallow. I covered why
you'd want to write automated tests, different types of test, testing
tools and then some concrete examples of how to get started.

* Lyle Hopkins - Fixing the Perl mushroom

Lyle talked about ways to kick-start Perl's popularity, including
modernising Perl's web presence, presenting a friendlier face to Perl
newbies and bridging the gap between CGI hackers and "higher level
Perl".

* Peter Haworth - Contributing to CPAN

Peter gave us a very thorough talk-through of how to go about
contributing a distribution to CPAN, including the various choices you
have to make and some guidance on which options would be the least
painful.

* Robin Edwards (AKA Rob) - Parrot and Porcupine

Rob - nice to meet you Rob - talked us through his project to build a
Pascal compiler using Parrot. He included an overview of Parrot's
components and compilation model; particularly interesting was the
Parrot Grammar Engine (PGE) which looked very human-friendly in its
syntax.

I had to leave a little early, so there may have been more to the
meeting than that (Peter had a 2nd talk prepared, for instance).

Do let me know what I missed.

Alex

From pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com  Mon Jun 15 15:44:19 2009
From: pmh at edison.ioppublishing.com (Peter Haworth)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:44:19 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Tech meet update
References: <4A147B38.9060804@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20090612152355.22195.9953@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<4A32DFEA.1050103@cosmicperl.com>
	<16afc9550906131109vb1f0cbk8af5696f27152947@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PGM.20090615144419.22195.9959@edison.ioppublishing.com>

On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 19:09:16 +0100, Alex Francis wrote:
> I had to leave a little early, so there may have been more to the
> meeting than that (Peter had a 2nd talk prepared, for instance).
>
> Do let me know what I missed.

You only missed my second talk, which was about how I solved the
Bedlam Cube (www.bedlampuzzles.com) using perl, and a vague plan for
doing something similar for Eternity II (uk.eternityii.com).

I finished the first working version of my Eternity II code at lunch
time today, so I'll be buying a clue puzzle, and adding in resumption
capability while I wait for it to arrive. I've also been reminded that
two of the clue puzzles are rectangular rather than square, so some
refactoring to handle that will also be required.

-- 
	Please sponsor me: http://justgiving.com/zip60peter

"I think this may be one of those Shibboleth things. If you like Perl 6,
 then "++?%a{@a}" is the kind of thing that could well make you like it
 more. If you don't like Perl 6, it's the kind of thing that makes you
 double the length of the pole with which you will not touch the language."
		-- Piers Cawley

This email (and attachments) are confidential and intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender, 
delete any copies and do not take action in reliance on it. Any views expressed are the author's and do not represent those of IOP, except where specifically 
stated. IOP takes reasonable precautions to protect against viruses but accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from virus infection. 
For the protection of IOP's systems and staff emails are scanned automatically.? 

Institute of Physics Registered in England under Registration No 293851 
Registered Office:  76/78 Portland Place, London W1B 1NT  
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From webmaster at cosmicperl.com  Tue Jun 16 14:36:37 2009
From: webmaster at cosmicperl.com (Lyle)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:36:37 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Tech meet update
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550906131109vb1f0cbk8af5696f27152947@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A147B38.9060804@cosmicperl.com>	<PGM.20090612152355.22195.9953@edison.ioppublishing.com>	<4A32DFEA.1050103@cosmicperl.com>
	<16afc9550906131109vb1f0cbk8af5696f27152947@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A379FE5.3080305@cosmicperl.com>

Alex,
  Any chance you could email me your presentation? Or maybe we should 
upload things to the site?? I'm doing some testing stuff at the moment 
and could do with having another flick through your detailed talk :)


Lyle

Alex Francis wrote:
> So - the tech meet happened :-)
>
> Thanks to the 3 others who made it, I enjoyed all the talks.
>
> Quick summary for those who missed it (apologies if I misquote titles):
>
> * My talk - Automated Testing Patterns in Perl
>
> Quite a large topic, so my talk was broad but shallow. I covered why
> you'd want to write automated tests, different types of test, testing
> tools and then some concrete examples of how to get started.
>
> * Lyle Hopkins - Fixing the Perl mushroom
>
> Lyle talked about ways to kick-start Perl's popularity, including
> modernising Perl's web presence, presenting a friendlier face to Perl
> newbies and bridging the gap between CGI hackers and "higher level
> Perl".
>
> * Peter Haworth - Contributing to CPAN
>
> Peter gave us a very thorough talk-through of how to go about
> contributing a distribution to CPAN, including the various choices you
> have to make and some guidance on which options would be the least
> painful.
>
> * Robin Edwards (AKA Rob) - Parrot and Porcupine
>
> Rob - nice to meet you Rob - talked us through his project to build a
> Pascal compiler using Parrot. He included an overview of Parrot's
> components and compilation model; particularly interesting was the
> Parrot Grammar Engine (PGE) which looked very human-friendly in its
> syntax.
>
> I had to leave a little early, so there may have been more to the
> meeting than that (Peter had a 2nd talk prepared, for instance).
>
> Do let me know what I missed.
>
> Alex
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>
>   

From robin.ge at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 15:04:43 2009
From: robin.ge at gmail.com (Robin Edwards)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 15:04:43 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Tech meet update
In-Reply-To: <4A379FE5.3080305@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4A147B38.9060804@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20090612152355.22195.9953@edison.ioppublishing.com> 
	<4A32DFEA.1050103@cosmicperl.com>
	<16afc9550906131109vb1f0cbk8af5696f27152947@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4A379FE5.3080305@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <303603130906160704x4148601al771a756e22473aeb@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks guys, very interesting afternoon.

Hopefully I can make the next bristol meet,

regards,

Rob

From alex.francis at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 15:10:50 2009
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 15:10:50 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Tech meet update
In-Reply-To: <4A379FE5.3080305@cosmicperl.com>
References: <4A147B38.9060804@cosmicperl.com>
	<PGM.20090612152355.22195.9953@edison.ioppublishing.com>
	<4A32DFEA.1050103@cosmicperl.com>
	<16afc9550906131109vb1f0cbk8af5696f27152947@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A379FE5.3080305@cosmicperl.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550906160710h2211692cm797e89f3dca173ea@mail.gmail.com>

Sure, I'll get it to you this evening - don't have access to it til then.
Alex

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Lyle<webmaster at cosmicperl.com> wrote:
> Alex,
> ?Any chance you could email me your presentation? Or maybe we should
> upload things to the site?? I'm doing some testing stuff at the moment
> and could do with having another flick through your detailed talk :)
>
>
> Lyle
>
> Alex Francis wrote:
>> So - the tech meet happened :-)
>>
>> Thanks to the 3 others who made it, I enjoyed all the talks.
>>
>> Quick summary for those who missed it (apologies if I misquote titles):
>>
>> * My talk - Automated Testing Patterns in Perl
>>
>> Quite a large topic, so my talk was broad but shallow. I covered why
>> you'd want to write automated tests, different types of test, testing
>> tools and then some concrete examples of how to get started.
>>
>> * Lyle Hopkins - Fixing the Perl mushroom
>>
>> Lyle talked about ways to kick-start Perl's popularity, including
>> modernising Perl's web presence, presenting a friendlier face to Perl
>> newbies and bridging the gap between CGI hackers and "higher level
>> Perl".
>>
>> * Peter Haworth - Contributing to CPAN
>>
>> Peter gave us a very thorough talk-through of how to go about
>> contributing a distribution to CPAN, including the various choices you
>> have to make and some guidance on which options would be the least
>> painful.
>>
>> * Robin Edwards (AKA Rob) - Parrot and Porcupine
>>
>> Rob - nice to meet you Rob - talked us through his project to build a
>> Pascal compiler using Parrot. He included an overview of Parrot's
>> components and compilation model; particularly interesting was the
>> Parrot Grammar Engine (PGE) which looked very human-friendly in its
>> syntax.
>>
>> I had to leave a little early, so there may have been more to the
>> meeting than that (Peter had a 2nd talk prepared, for instance).
>>
>> Do let me know what I missed.
>>
>> Alex
>> _______________________________________________
>> BristolBathPM mailing list
>> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
>> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>


From alex.francis at gmail.com  Sat Jun 20 20:25:15 2009
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:25:15 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Perl 6 "elems"
Message-ID: <16afc9550906201225m1753c349u19baafabba1df4d8@mail.gmail.com>

I finally got round to reading a little about Perl 6 - Gabor's blog
post / mailout:

http://szabgab.com/blog/2009/06/1245228625.html

One thing that leapt out to me was this bit:

--quote--
Instead of the quite ugly $#array notation used in Perl 5 (that
returns the highest index in the array) fetching the number of
elements of array is done in Perl 6 by the elems() function. Actually
I think the object oriented writing is much nicer here:
    use v6;
    my @names = <foo bar baz>;
    say elems @names;                   # 3
    say @names.elems;                   # 3
--end quote--

"elems" seems a pretty odd choice of word. Does anyone know why any of
'length', 'count' or 'size' wasn't chosen for this?

Maybe there's an archived discussion somewhere that explains the rationale?

I did find this RFC requesting length( @array ) -
http://dev.perl.org/perl6/rfc/212.html

Ah... answers own question: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/apo/A02.html

Basically, "length" is ambiguous / would require overloading for
different arguments, hence "elems" is more specific, explicit and less
likely to be misinterpreted. I still think "count" would have been
clearer, but hey ho.

Alex

From psykx.out at googlemail.com  Sat Jun 20 21:55:58 2009
From: psykx.out at googlemail.com (Max)
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 21:55:58 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Perl 6 "elems"
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550906201225m1753c349u19baafabba1df4d8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <16afc9550906201225m1753c349u19baafabba1df4d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A3D4CDE.4080907@googlemail.com>

Alex Francis wrote:
> I finally got round to reading a little about Perl 6 - Gabor's blog
> post / mailout:
>
> http://szabgab.com/blog/2009/06/1245228625.html
>
> One thing that leapt out to me was this bit:
>
> --quote--
> Instead of the quite ugly $#array notation used in Perl 5 (that
> returns the highest index in the array) fetching the number of
> elements of array is done in Perl 6 by the elems() function. Actually
> I think the object oriented writing is much nicer here:
>     use v6;
>     my @names = <foo bar baz>;
>     say elems @names;                   # 3
>     say @names.elems;                   # 3
> --end quote--
>
> "elems" seems a pretty odd choice of word. Does anyone know why any of
> 'length', 'count' or 'size' wasn't chosen for this?
>
>   
length could refer to a number of properties as could count and size 
also all three are used by lots of other languages. elems is a shortend 
version of elements which describes accurately what the number returned is.

Max
> Maybe there's an archived discussion somewhere that explains the rationale?
>
> I did find this RFC requesting length( @array ) -
> http://dev.perl.org/perl6/rfc/212.html
>
> Ah... answers own question: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/apo/A02.html
>
> Basically, "length" is ambiguous / would require overloading for
> different arguments, hence "elems" is more specific, explicit and less
> likely to be misinterpreted. I still think "count" would have been
> clearer, but hey ho.
>
> Alex
> _______________________________________________
> BristolBathPM mailing list
> BristolBathPM at bristolbath.org
> http://mailman.bristolbath.org/mailman/listinfo/bristolbathpm
>   


From jamie at shareable.org  Sun Jun 21 01:09:04 2009
From: jamie at shareable.org (Jamie Lokier)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 01:09:04 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Perl 6 "elems"
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550906201225m1753c349u19baafabba1df4d8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <16afc9550906201225m1753c349u19baafabba1df4d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090621000904.GA30824@shareable.org>

Alex Francis wrote:
> I finally got round to reading a little about Perl 6 - Gabor's blog
> post / mailout:
> 
> http://szabgab.com/blog/2009/06/1245228625.html
> 
> One thing that leapt out to me was this bit:
> 
> --quote--

> Instead of the quite ugly $#array notation used in Perl 5 (that
> returns the highest index in the array) fetching the number of
> elements of array is done in Perl 6 by the elems() function. Actually
> I think the object oriented writing is much nicer here:
>     use v6;
>     my @names = <foo bar baz>;
>     say elems @names;                   # 3
>     say @names.elems;                   # 3
> --end quote--

Personally I find @array in scalar context a nice way to get the
number of elements in Perl 5, though it is a bit too implicit for the
unfamiliar reader.  $#array is rarely useful.

-- Jamie

From cms at beatworm.co.uk  Sun Jun 21 08:33:08 2009
From: cms at beatworm.co.uk (Colin M. Strickland)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 08:33:08 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Perl 6 "elems"
In-Reply-To: <20090621000904.GA30824@shareable.org>
References: <16afc9550906201225m1753c349u19baafabba1df4d8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090621000904.GA30824@shareable.org>
Message-ID: <C956D9A9-ADE3-419F-B2CD-45516E272837@beatworm.co.uk>


On 21 Jun 2009, at 01:09, Jamie Lokier wrote:

> I find @array in scalar context a nice way to get the
> number of elements in Perl 5, though it is a bit too implicit for the
> unfamiliar reader.

It doesn't have to be implicit though. A common pattern is to lob in a  
literal 'scalar' to make it explicit e.g. $count = scalar @things;

I'm not sure it's particularly readable, and the useless invocation of  
scalar is possibly not optimal, but it unambiguously indicates that  
there's some kind of transforming operation in there.

-- 
Regards,
Colin M. Strickland


From alex.francis at gmail.com  Sun Jun 21 21:08:01 2009
From: alex.francis at gmail.com (Alex Francis)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:08:01 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Perl 6 "elems"
In-Reply-To: <4A3D4CDE.4080907@googlemail.com>
References: <16afc9550906201225m1753c349u19baafabba1df4d8@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A3D4CDE.4080907@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <16afc9550906211308i455e5d62u21ccbc62cdbbf0e9@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 9:55 PM, Max <psykx.out at googlemail.com> wrote:

> length could refer to a number of properties as could count and size
> also all three are used by lots of other languages. elems is a shortend
> version of elements which describes accurately what the number returned is.
>
> Max

Out of curiosity, I did a quick google survey of what some other languages
call this. The results:
java: length
javascript: length
c#: Length
python: len
ruby: length
php: count(array), sizeof(array) (sizeof is an alias for count)
erlang: size(tuple), length(list), size(array)
eiffel: count (I think!)

I still think 'count' is relatively unambiguous and more obvious than
'elems', but nobody asked me to design Perl 6 - and I'm a little alarmed to
be agreeing with PHP about 'count' - so I think I'll shut up!
Alex
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From david at cantrell.org.uk  Fri Jun 26 10:54:15 2009
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 10:54:15 +0100
Subject: [BristolBathPM] Perl 6 "elems"
In-Reply-To: <16afc9550906201225m1753c349u19baafabba1df4d8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <16afc9550906201225m1753c349u19baafabba1df4d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090626095414.GE21061@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 08:25:15PM +0100, Alex Francis wrote:

>     say @names.elems;                   # 3
> 
> "elems" seems a pretty odd choice of word. Does anyone know why any of
> 'length', 'count' or 'size' wasn't chosen for this?

And why not "elements"?  You would have thought that people would have
learned from one of K&R (I forget which) who said that their biggest
mistake in designing C and the standard library was calling the function
'creat' instead of 'create'.

-- 
David Cantrell | Bourgeois reactionary pig

  Your call is important to me.  To see if it's important to
  you I'm going to make you wait on hold for five minutes.
  All calls are recorded for blackmail and amusement purposes.